thismaz | Question for the flist-mind

I always try to spell it as alright but, if I am writing it on the computer rather than by hand, the spell checker complains. And, on checking, so does my 1969 Cassell's English Dictionary - so even if it is alright now, it wasn't alright then...

The Cambridge Guide to English Usage (which I invested in after my tangle with a certain archive) says that the controversy over alright is emotional rather than linguistic or logical, and points out that alright conveys a range of meanings that all right doesn't, because all right implies 'correct', whereas alright can imply, for example, 'barely tolerable'. It concludes that 'alright is there to be used without any second thoughts'.

I've always thought that whatever happens between speech marks is pretty much up to the writer -- conveying speech patterns, and all -- but, of course, my favourite archive disagrees!

I always use 'all right'. 'Alright' seems more slangy; it wouldn't get past an editor if I used it in a book.

I think, perhaps, that I see the two versions as similar in relationship to 'all ways' and 'always' - not meaning exactly the same as each other - as Ningloreth and the Cambridge Guide to English Usage seem to suggest as well.

'All right' suggests that all is right - 'alright' suggests that things are just about acceptable.

Also of course, you wouldn't say "All right," as an agreement to do something, I don't think - as in

"When you are out can you get a bottle of milk?" "Alright."

Or would you actually have to write

"When you are out can you get a bottle of milk?" "All right."?

Which just looks silly. Well, to me, anyway.

My inclination is to write alright in modern fics especially, but my beta used to correct them all to 'all right' and they know more about grammar than me so I stuck with that. Maybe it depends on whether it's speech or narration?

Bleh! All right is correct. I do understand that 'alright' has made its way into the popular vernacular (particularly the American), but I never use it and am annoyed when I see it.

Sorry. I know you were particularly looking for British input.

I don't really have a problem with the idea of 'alright' as a compound, but I've never been able to actually read it so it gets pronounced right in my head, so it's never been a spelling I've used and it makes me pause and wrinkle my nose when I come across it. Though I'm not sure how much I actually do come across it, apart from in The Damned's song 'I Feel Alright', which is a favourite track of mine and not something that could be spelt any other way...

I've always thought that whatever happens between speech marks is pretty much up to the writer

This; I'll agree with this. With the caveat that 'writing out' accents rarely works unless all your audience has the same accent for standard English as you do, I think you might as well be transcribing the stuff between quotation marks, so it's about what is actually said/implied as said.

I hear what you're saying ::nods::

I'd still never use it ;-)))

I started off thinking this was an North American/British thing, but looking at the range of responses, I'm not so sure now. There seems to be a generational element, too?
I guess it was always 'incorrect' (whatever that word means in this context) but was used commonly. I find quin's reaction interesting.

I like that explanation. It feels right (as in, all right *g*) to me.

but, of course, my favourite archive disagrees!
*grins at you* Ah, to hell with them and the horse they rode in on.

With the caveat that 'writing out' accents rarely works
I agree with you there, but this feels more like the use of contractions, where not to use them in dialogue would distort the characters' voices.

Do you think there is a North American/British divide here? You've been in North America a long time. Were you publishing before you went?

What would your editor say if one of your characters used the word alright, to mean okay, as in the reply to 'will you get me a bottle of milk?' Or would you change the alright to okay, so that it didn't cause a problem.

My specific example is one character saying 'come to bed' and the other saying, 'alright'. 'All right' just doesn't work, it doesn't actually make sense as a reply in that context.

Just out of curiosity, is your beta North American?

No problem; you are always welcome. (and I've just noticed - always/all ways. Huh. *g*)

'alright' has made its way into the popular vernacular

I don't think it is, strictly, a matter of the popular vernacular, over here. I think it's a word, although the dictionaries say it is a 'less formal' spelling.
When I asked sparrow, she looked amazed and said she had always spelt it as one word, as had I. It never occurred to me to spell it as two, when using it to mean the same thing as okay.
If I split it into two words when writing dialogue, it would be because I wanted to make a point about a character vocalised it as two quite separate words.

However, I understand your visceral reaction *g* I have the same (as you know) to certain American usages.

This is really interesting, because until I saw this comment I was thinking it was a North American/British thing.

So, to quote the wombat's example, you would spell the answer to the question, 'will you buy some milk?' as 'All right'?
Because I can't make those two words make sense, in that context.

apart from in The Damned's song 'I Feel Alright', which [is] not something that could be spelt any other way
Actually, from the point of view of making sense, I could see that split into two words.

Yes, they are :) They do handwave my use of it sometimes in speech because it just sounds right that way on occasion!

Well, I write out 'all right' every time Spike uses it! And would use it as an answer to the milk question, yeah. I've been thinking about Wombat's distinction, actually, and have a feeling that I don't have a sense of any primary, literal meaning of 'all right', so the phrase is always the 'alright' sense of the phrase. 'All right' to me basically means 'yeah' or 'OK' or 'fine' - or 'how are you' (when it's got a question mark, obviously). I could maybe swap in 'alright' when it's specifically the greeting sort of 'all right' where the expected response is just another 'alright/all right' rather than any real information (which I'm really bad at responding to properly but recognise when it's used), but otherwise I don't see it in my head. 'Is everything all right?', for example, isn't a tautology to me - and 'is everything alright?' doesn't make sense.

I have to agree with this, based on what I know. From what I've heard, 'alright' only became part of the dictionary through common usage. It was originally "all right", but people started shortening it. However, common usage does define our dictionary, so, unless it's formal writing, it's probably more down to the author's choice as to which to use.

*grins* There are small but very significant differences between British and American English that I find endlessly fascinating. The passion they raise, across the Atlantic, is also fun.

Do you remember when I did a language post that included a rant about characters not being able to help themselves, all the time? You and Brutti both (very politely) cursed me for it. You get your revenge, now. I am going to be hyper-aware of alright/all right, in future. *g*

Wombat's dictionary is 1969, mine is 1986 and the one British person who doesn't use alright is younger. If I wanted to jump to conclusions, I might say that it's like we were acquiring accepted use of it over here, but under American influence, are now losing it again. Meanwhile, smwright is complaining about it entering American English. *g* Got to love the irony, if that is the case.

It is pretty ironic, isn't it? XD
I have to admit, as an American, I dislike it, but I see it all to often. However, I guess it's really just a matter of what people are taught and what looks better in context.
A lot of grammar (at least, the way I think it should be) seems to be for aesthetic purposes and flow. So really, it's author's choice.

It's fascinating - and I'm getting the impression that, unlike some contractions, it is more common amongst Brits than North Americans - but only some, not all.

Generational... hmm... I think I might be the oldest responder, and quin the youngest, so it wouldn't be the obvious way round. And a verbal discussion with S2C shows that he regards the 'alright' 'all right' meaning slightly different things in the same way as me. Which is, of course, why my beta has no problem with it!

Could it possibly be a north/south of the UK thing even?

Can't just be the highly educated Oxbridge people who use the full version, as Ningloreth is one of them ;~P

It could be, but I don't think so. It just feels too wrong to spell it that way so it's probably how my teachers taught me. Yes, I'd change it to 'okay' or rather, I'd never have used 'alright' so it wouldn't come up, but in all the publishers style guides I've seen, 'alright' is forbidden.

Honestly, I think people would see the 'all right' in that sentence and accept it without thought. But you could work around it. "Sure", "I'm on my way." "Mmm. Yes." Or just have the character nod and slide between the sheets.

North/South probably does play a part, now you mention it. That does make a huge difference in many things to do with language, beyond the obvious dialectic ones.

I speculated to Llama that we might be losing it, under American influence, while they are gaining it *g* Which would be funny.

I am going to keep thinking alright, but I might start considering how I spell it, more, in future.

Yes, you are right about many grammar 'rules'. They are designed to help the reader read and understand, but if they get in the way, many of them should be ignored.

Or just have the character nod and slide between the sheets.
*grins* I actually had him say, "Yes," instead. It worked fine in the context.

Oh! I see. I thought it was more common to use 'alright' here than there, but apparently I'm wrong?

Hee, just about! I have a feeling there might be some sort of North/South or generational thing going on, only because I think yoofy London people are the most likely to use 'all right?' as a greeting, and generally stick in 'all right' anywhere it can go. Although I only think that because I'm trying to back up my convoluted idea that the main reason I spell it 'all right' is because of how ubiquitous the meaningless version is in my life...

No, looking at the responses I've had, I think we can safely say that alright is a British word.

I based my guess about generational influence on a sample of three *g* Not exactly a size that would normally be judged suitable for extrapolation to the entire population. I am happier with wombat's North/South suggestion.

The only time 'alright' has come up on LJ that I've seen is when an American person on my flist used it and a Brit reacted negatively to the use. :)

You know how much I enjoy these discussions, right?

Yes, I know. As do I.

In fact, looking at the responses I've had, I now think it is a Northern British word. If your objector is a Southerner, that would support the theory.

I hadn't thought of that, but anecdotally, it may make sense. I am a Southerner of course. I didn't tell you, but I asked Mike, "'All right'... one word or two?" And he replied, "Both. 'All right' is 'everything is correct' and 'alright' is 'everything is okay.'" I poo-pooed that. *laughs* Told him that 'all right' was two words... and he is Northern.

All of which raises yet another linguistic point, darling. Can there even be Northern and Southern preferences for the English language in different countries? That is, can Northern Americans and Northern Brits agree that 'alright' is one word and Southern Americans and Southern Brits agree that it is always one word? Fascinating.

I'm with Mike on the definitions. That is exactly how I would define the difference between the two forms.

*laughs* I have this wonderful image of immigrants following the latitude lines across the Atlantic, as they journey to their new home. I wonder if it would have to be reversed for immigrants to Australia and New Zealand. (Southerners do talk about the 'Deep North', in Australia, but that is more of a caricaturing reference to cultural attitudes, rather than a recognition of any linguistic divide.)

This is so fascinating. Now I have to know! We have to come up with a laundry list of potential geographic differences within our countries and see if they are the same between our countries. :P

When the UK has a land mass equal to approximately 2% of the US and is about the same distance North to South (including the Shetlands) as California, there would have to be quite a bit of stretching. So, maybe, not following the latitude lines, so much as fanning out across the Atlantic *g*

Very good point. Mike is cognition/linguistically inclined. I'll have to chat with him about this again.

Somehow, I think where the original British immigrants settled (and therefore where specific accents or dialects congregated) would have more to do with the port of origin and the wave of/reason for immigration. I don't know enough about that. I know that settlers were promised land in what is now the southern states and I know that indentured labourers were sent to work that land, but I don't know where they were sent from. As for the northern states, I know even less.

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