Words, words and more words

[thismaz]

After I posted to complain about the word 'gotten', only to learn that it is correct usage as the past tense of 'get', in American English, I thought I would ask another question, rather than make assumptions in ignorance.

It's the word 'said', used to mean 'the' or 'that particular one', as in, for example, 'Jack and Bob were in a hotel room and Jack spoke as he paced around said room.'

I see it a lot and, on the few occasions I have thought to look, the writers were American. To me, it feels like a very old fashioned and stilted word usage and it usually causes me to back-button out of the story, if it occurs before I have had time to engage with the writing.

But I remember noticing Giles use it once, in an episode of BtVS, so I'm wondering if this is a word in common usage in America, or whether it is believed by Americans to be in common usage in Britain.

For that matter, is it in common usage in Britain and I've just avoided picking it up?

What do you think?

I don't necessarily expect it to bother you, because, well, we all have our own pet likes and dislikes. But I would be interested to know if 'said' used in that way is considered common usage. Do you use it in everyday speech or thought?

Comments

[trepkos.livejournal.com]

Seems old-fashioned British to me.
My objection to it in narration is that it makes the author seem very present in the story. I could put up with a pompous person using it in dialogue though.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Thank you. That is EXACTLY why I don't like it, but I hadn't thought it through.

[hawera.livejournal.com]

It was, but is no longer, in common useage in English English in legal documents, but not otherwise.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Yes, legal documents, I can see that. Thanks.

[speakr2customrs.livejournal.com]

Giles using it means nothing; ASH never stood up for England against the American writers and just said what was in the script even if it was ridiculous. According to the Buffyverse Dialogue Database he even said "gotten" on occasion. I think he should have had his British passport taken away for that.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

*grins* Yes, I wondered if it was the American writers thinking it was British English.
Reminds me of his 'blueberry scone' line, at the prom - that always jarred on me.

[ex_peasant441]

I use it, but only when I'm being mock pompous. And I'm sure I wouldn't use it in speech or a fic. I don't think I've ever noticed it being used in fic. Maybe I read the wrong class of fic.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Or maybe you read the right class of fic. *g*
Pompous is a good word.

[quinara]

I'm pretty sure I use 'said', but then my vocabulary is (a) irrevocably influenced by the Buffyverse and (b) chock-full of random archaisms, formal phrases and words/slang that shouldn't technically belong to me... The line between my using words ironically and using them seriously has, in most cases, blurred beyond to the point where I can't really keep up anymore. :/

[quinara]

(And also apparently contains rogue 'beyonds' - sorry about that.)

[speakr2customrs.livejournal.com]

From the land beyond beyond...
From the world past hope and fear...
I bid you, Genie, now appear.

[quinara]

:D *jumps back from the genie*

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

In speech, we can call that 'being unique and individual'.
There's certainly nothing wrong with that.
I think it's when I see it in narrative that I find it jarring.

[curiouswombat.livejournal.com]

"Said" - I have heard it used for 'that' - and my daughter says it seems fine to her... but actually what it makes me think of is policemen making statements in things like Dixon of Dock Green in my childhood - and in others since.

Actually D-d says 'gotten' sounds OK to her in certain circumstances such as 'I have gotten used to it' of 'If I'd gotten up earlier I would have got more done.' She thinks it flows better that 'I have got used to it'.

We think it is not when she uses 'got' to mean 'received', but when she uses it as part of a compound verb such as to get up, or get over and so on... she is currently sitting here deciding if it is the perfect tense or something - but I was never very good at tenses!

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

I'll be interested to see if any of my American flist have anything to say about 'said'. It sounds very anachronistic to me, but if it is common usage in America, then maybe it's in for a comeback, over here.

I beta for an American who refused a change of gotten to got from me, for exactly the same reason your daughter stated. (That was before I posted about it.)
Interesting example she quotes. What about if she put the contraction into 'I have', so it is 'I've got used to it' or 'I've gotten used to it'?
I'm pretty sure Americans use it in the context of 'They had gotten to the place' as well as 'He had gotten the coffee from the cupboard'. I'm no good at the names of tenses either, but I don't think that is past perfect.

ETA: *points at next comment*

[curiouswombat.livejournal.com]

What about if she put the contraction into 'I have', so it is 'I've got used to it' or 'I've gotten used to it'?

Ah - now I'd say the former, but she says she might well say the latter...

But we agree that 'They had gotten to the place' as well as 'He had gotten the coffee from the cupboard'. both sound horrible!

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

But we agree that ... both sound horrible!
*laughs* That is actually a relief to hear.

[smwright.livejournal.com]

It's very common in American English, even in common speech. It would be one of those things that would jar if never used (or only in old fashioned speech) in British English. I can see that. There are phrases I've learned to just accept and that no longer trouble me when I read British authors, but it takes time.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Ah, bless you. You arrive right on cue. *g*
I suspected as much, but I didn't want to assume. *sighs* Okay, I've managed to adapt to 'gotten', I'll see if I can do the same for this use of 'said'.
Thanks for the confirmation, hon.

[smwright.livejournal.com]

*g* Anytime. I'm happy to oblige.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

*hugs you*

[draconin.livejournal.com]

I've certainly seen 'said' used in that manner many times before. It's a rather formal usage that's true, but one that I'd not hesitate to use in writing a textbook, though not in speech.
I'm Australian BTW.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Yes, formal use, like a textbook, I can see that too.
Thank you for the Australian take on it.

[tabaqui]

Though you probably have enough.....I'm American, i've used 'said' that way, have read it used that way, and i'm sure that my family and my SO have used it that way. So - it's not *common*, and it is a touch formal, and i would not expect the guy at the gas station in the trucker hat and Skoal-stains to use it that way, but it's not something most Americans would look twice at.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Always interesting to hear more.
it's not *common*, and it is a touch formal, ... but it's not something most Americans would look twice at.
That's interesting, compared to smwright, above. I have a vague recollection that you are in one of the flat ones, in the middle, as Buffy said to Riley. smwright is in the south.
but it's not something most Americans would look twice at
Thanks for the confirmation.

[tabaqui]

*snickers*

Well, i *am* in the middle - Missouri - but it's not remotely flat.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Ah well, one out of two ain't bad. *g*

Still, must be over 1,000 miles, so I imagine there would be differences in the way people everyday-speak.

[tabaqui]

Oh, definitely. We all have our own little regional quirks. :)

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

*laughs* Just as well, or wouldn't life be boring *g*

[the-s-guy.livejournal.com]

I've used it, although not often. It's just a shorter way to say "the aforementioned".

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Another Australian. That's interesting.

[suzume-tori.livejournal.com]

"said" in that case is being used as "aforementioned"?

I haven't the slightest idea as to who wrote what lines in Buffy. I generally assumed Americans were responsible, mostly because supposedly British characters said "guys" instead of "blokes", which always sounds odd to me. (I wasn't sure if that meant -- were the people writing the script unaware of the difference in vocabulary? Or -- if someone with the appropriate knowledge were writing the script, perhaps they were pandering to American sensibilities?)

BASICALLY I KNOW NOTHING. Except that it was used to make American audiences feel "ah, I am listening to a stuffy British man". Not that "aforementioned" would be any better, but -- in terms of speech patterns, it sounds pretentious, either way.

As an aside, I am here and sniffing around your livejournal because your writing made me purr on the inside. (And possibly on the outside, but try not to judge. We all have our own bizarre mannerisms, yeah?) Like -- I'd be reading a paragraph of one of your stories, and then I'd go back and re-read it, simply because I liked how everything was structured. Pretty, pretty writing. Excuse me while I roll around and make adoring noises.

(Meanwhile, in my kitchen, my baby brother is inventing words, like 'inhuming', as in the opposite of 'exhuming', mixed up somewhere with 'interring'; he likes to make words. He's decided that a word like 'inhuming' would be a useful addition to the vocabulary of someone in an assassin's guild. I have a very strange family.)

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Firstly, thank you so much for you 'as an aside', which made me grin like a mad woman and purr, myself. *bg*

Yes, this post was about the word 'said' in that context. From the conversations that happened in the comments threads, I have come to the conclusion that 'said' is used fairly commonly in (at least parts of) the US. The writers on Buffy were American and they wrote the lines without really trying to exclude American word usage from Giles' dialogue, and Anthony Head didn't correct them.

It sounds like you have a very interesting family, or a family that is interested in words, which is almost the same thing *g* I like your brother's 'inhuming' although I'm not sure how one would use it outside of the assassin's guild, or some equivelent organisation. The grave robbers' guild?
One of my favourite non-words is 'couth'. Saying "I don't have much couth" is not nearly as bad as admitting to being uncouth. *g*

[demongoddess061.livejournal.com]

I believe it's more of a legalese term that found its way in to the common vernacular in America.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, yes, that makes sense. Thank you.