Spike as a character and how he changes
Aug. 12th, 2008 08:23 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
thismazSomeone on my flist made a post about how Spike's character developed during the series and asked what, besides love, could have made him shift from villain to hero. It's locked, so if you can't see it, you won't and if you can, you already know who that was. *g*
I started to ramble in a comment, until I realised I was going on for far too long to be polite in someone else's LJ. So I moved it all here.
My interpretation of Spike and his personal journey...
Firstly, I believe that the reason Spike is such a popular character is because he is so malleable; he does change. We see a different manifestation of him in each season and, in seasons 4, 5, 6 and 7, he mutates from one to the other over the course of the preceding one.
From the point of view of the dynamic of the show, one of the interesting things about him is that he is the only character who is first presented to us as a villain but ends up a hero. All the others, Angel included, are presented to us as 'good'. They may deviate into evil, but we know they can be redeemed, because they were good before.
I don't like the term Love's Bitch, not only because it has become a fanfic cliché, but also because, although Spike uses it about himself he does so ironically (which is not to say untruthfully) and as a label it can too easily close our thinking down into a 'Spike is a victim of love' position in all his romantic relationships.
Similarly, I think there is far too much emphasis placed in fan fiction on Spike caring for Dru. She was sick when we first meet them, but we don't know how long ago they were in Prague. Anyone who thinks that the Dru we see in China, or in London in 1880, or the Dru in the latter half of s2 and later, is in need of 'looking after' hasn't watched the same series I did. The whole 'cared for Dru for 100 years' argument that portrays Dru as perpetual and incompetent child, is totally ridiculous. (Hee, I wouldn't have made a statement as strong as that on someone else's LJ either).
Yes, Spike needs to love. Yes, he needs to be needed. But those aren't his only important motivational traits.
William had a head full of dreams and ideals. He went to a party and got shot down, twice, by people who mocked and rejected everything he believed in and rejected him. Then he died - at a moment of emotional crux, when his faith in humanity had been knocked over and he had been cast out of 'his place' in the world. (On a side note Liam didn't have a problem with the world in general - only with his father. Liam died in a state of personal and individual rebellion against his father. Since my premise is that the state of mind, or the dominant emotion, of the human has a lasting influence upon the vampire, this is important. Angelus has no humanity in him because he turned against humanity at a personal level.) Spike might have turned against humanity in general, but he didn't turn against his own. That was actually what William was clinging to when he died.
Spike needs the security of belonging - not necessarily to someone, but he needs to have a place in the world.
As for his journey from villain to hero:
Being cast off by Dru was a necessary start point - he lost his place.
The chip was the pivot point. There's no question there - it put him in a position where he lost his power and it led him to consort with the Scoobies.
Powerless and lost he took any scrap he could get, until he brought it all crashing down around his own ears.
Did he go looking for his soul? I don't think so. What he says when he wins his challenge in the cave is: Make me what I was. So Buffy can get what she deserves.
Why did he get it? Maybe because the demon in Africa knew better than Spike did himself, what it was he needed. He certainly didn't grant Spike's wish in any way that reflects Spike's words. Spike became a vampire with a soul. That's hardly what he was. But with The First looming on the horizon in Sunnydale, it could be that the demon took a wider view of 'what Buffy deserves', that had nothing to do with love.
And yet, the soul is the point at which he achieves the potential to be redeemed, according to Jossverse lore. So maybe he was made back into what he was - after all, in this context, what is a human but a person with the ability to choose whether to fight against evil or co-operate with it.
So coming back to the question (with apologies for the ramble) what, besides love of Buffy, could motivate Spike to change?
I could see him making the shift without falling in love with Buffy, but I think the spuffy was an accelerant, that it was the means by which he eventually destroyed his own place in the Scooby camp and that was what sent him to Africa.
I started to ramble in a comment, until I realised I was going on for far too long to be polite in someone else's LJ. So I moved it all here.
My interpretation of Spike and his personal journey...
Firstly, I believe that the reason Spike is such a popular character is because he is so malleable; he does change. We see a different manifestation of him in each season and, in seasons 4, 5, 6 and 7, he mutates from one to the other over the course of the preceding one.
From the point of view of the dynamic of the show, one of the interesting things about him is that he is the only character who is first presented to us as a villain but ends up a hero. All the others, Angel included, are presented to us as 'good'. They may deviate into evil, but we know they can be redeemed, because they were good before.
I don't like the term Love's Bitch, not only because it has become a fanfic cliché, but also because, although Spike uses it about himself he does so ironically (which is not to say untruthfully) and as a label it can too easily close our thinking down into a 'Spike is a victim of love' position in all his romantic relationships.
Similarly, I think there is far too much emphasis placed in fan fiction on Spike caring for Dru. She was sick when we first meet them, but we don't know how long ago they were in Prague. Anyone who thinks that the Dru we see in China, or in London in 1880, or the Dru in the latter half of s2 and later, is in need of 'looking after' hasn't watched the same series I did. The whole 'cared for Dru for 100 years' argument that portrays Dru as perpetual and incompetent child, is totally ridiculous. (Hee, I wouldn't have made a statement as strong as that on someone else's LJ either).
Yes, Spike needs to love. Yes, he needs to be needed. But those aren't his only important motivational traits.
William had a head full of dreams and ideals. He went to a party and got shot down, twice, by people who mocked and rejected everything he believed in and rejected him. Then he died - at a moment of emotional crux, when his faith in humanity had been knocked over and he had been cast out of 'his place' in the world. (On a side note Liam didn't have a problem with the world in general - only with his father. Liam died in a state of personal and individual rebellion against his father. Since my premise is that the state of mind, or the dominant emotion, of the human has a lasting influence upon the vampire, this is important. Angelus has no humanity in him because he turned against humanity at a personal level.) Spike might have turned against humanity in general, but he didn't turn against his own. That was actually what William was clinging to when he died.
Spike needs the security of belonging - not necessarily to someone, but he needs to have a place in the world.
As for his journey from villain to hero:
Being cast off by Dru was a necessary start point - he lost his place.
The chip was the pivot point. There's no question there - it put him in a position where he lost his power and it led him to consort with the Scoobies.
Powerless and lost he took any scrap he could get, until he brought it all crashing down around his own ears.
Did he go looking for his soul? I don't think so. What he says when he wins his challenge in the cave is: Make me what I was. So Buffy can get what she deserves.
Why did he get it? Maybe because the demon in Africa knew better than Spike did himself, what it was he needed. He certainly didn't grant Spike's wish in any way that reflects Spike's words. Spike became a vampire with a soul. That's hardly what he was. But with The First looming on the horizon in Sunnydale, it could be that the demon took a wider view of 'what Buffy deserves', that had nothing to do with love.
And yet, the soul is the point at which he achieves the potential to be redeemed, according to Jossverse lore. So maybe he was made back into what he was - after all, in this context, what is a human but a person with the ability to choose whether to fight against evil or co-operate with it.
So coming back to the question (with apologies for the ramble) what, besides love of Buffy, could motivate Spike to change?
I could see him making the shift without falling in love with Buffy, but I think the spuffy was an accelerant, that it was the means by which he eventually destroyed his own place in the Scooby camp and that was what sent him to Africa.
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no subject
Date: 2008-08-13 09:07 am (UTC)Please do. The more the merrier. Thanks for joining in.
Buffy was the general of the troops, but she was without her counterpart
Umm, she had Faith.
more from her inability to differentiate between hero and lover than it does from any motivation Spike may have needed.
Spike fell for Buffy in s5. At that point she was happy to take advantage of his skills, but wasn't interested in requiting his sexual desires. It was in s6 that she did that and it was a very destructive relationship for her, as she eventually realised.
I do think Spike needs to love. I just don't think it is his only motivation, as many fanfic stories tend to make it.
I think Spike's need to belong is the need to belong with another person (not really 'to').
Not disagreeing with you there. Belonging with a group of people is to have a place. He didn't love the rest of the Scooby Gang, but he wanted his place among them.
But as a demon, when he loves, his love is essentially selfish. He wants to own the object of his love. When Angelus steals Dru, Spike hates it. When Buffy begins to resist their entanglement he tries to blackmail her by threatening to out her to her friends. She is stronger than him, so he can't use physical force.
See, I am drawing a distinction between his needing-a-place and his love motivated actions. They are often mixed up together, but I do see them as distinct.
Edited, because I meant to add that bit and forgot I hadn't. *g*
no subject
Date: 2008-08-13 11:38 am (UTC)At that point she was happy to take advantage of his skills, but wasn't interested in requiting his sexual desires. True. She was, however, also very coy for a long time in her reactions both to Spike and to random others about her r'ship with Spike. "Spike? No..." One of my major problems with all of s6 wasn't the darkness (that many viewers seemed to dislike) but Buffy's behaviors toward Spike. I agree that the r'ship was destructive, but in many ways, so was hers with Angel. (In that she often hid it, she lied to those she loved about him, she was often unhappy in it, etc...) Both destructive, just in different ways. What I mean in my dislike of her behaviors was that she was overtly cruel, and this is so out of character for Buffy. I'm a social psychologist, and I write fiction. Every now and again? Sure, people do things OOC for themselves. To sustain that over practically an entire season really rubbed me the wrong way. I didn't just think she used him; I felt that she was written wrong for a long time. Toward the latter part of the season, that changed, and the character acknowledge what she had done. I don't know if that was planned all along or if Joss & Co. were backtracking, but I try not to take more about their r'ship from who we know them to both be and from s5 and s7 than from s6 (where, admittedly, most of the action occurred).
But as a demon, when he loves, his love is essentially selfish. Actually, I don't know that we disagree. I think your original thoughts re: William v. Liam here were brilliant, and this is insightful, too. What I would add is that I think all human love is basically selfish at the core. So, I would rephrase this to But as a human, when he loved, his love was essentially selfish. As a demon, he took less care to hide the fact than humans do.
*sighs* (*g*)
See, I am drawing a distinction between his needing-a-place and his love motivated actions. They are often mixed up together, but I do see them as distinct. This is, I think, our only area of quasi-disagreement (maybe). I think they are distinct, but I think there is a direct line from the love-motivated actions to the needing-a-place (or person).
Wow. Okay. Time for work, woman-who-makes-me-think!
no subject
Date: 2008-08-13 11:40 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-13 01:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-13 01:05 pm (UTC)Go on. You should be working, anyway. *g* Good luck.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-13 06:16 pm (UTC)I totally agree with you about Buffy and season six. She was needlessly, continuously cruel in ways that just *did not* sit well. Particularly i got so damn angry when Spike repeatedly asked her to just leave him alone, and she *would not*. She could ban him from her home, she could keep him away from her friends - she didn't *need* to see him if she didn't want to, but she just kept coming back to him, usually only to get pissed and hit him.
*and when the other person can't hit back...blech.*
The Angel/Buffy 'ship was also, yes, as you say, very unhealthy. And also boring, but that's just me. :)
And i also have to agree that love is a rather selfish thing. People are all 'that person is *mine*, i love them' and often do rather silly, or weird, or ugly things to prove it/keep them. So, yes, his being a demon meant he could say or do without trying to justify himself or hide his actions. But i don't think it made him a 'worse' person or anything else.
Fun stuff. :)
no subject
Date: 2008-08-13 06:58 pm (UTC)If anything, in my opinion, it made him more honest. Spike was much more honest than Buffy in s6, but then he'd had 150 years to come to terms with who and what he was.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-13 09:00 pm (UTC)I feel the same way.
:)
no subject
Date: 2008-08-14 06:43 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-08-14 06:44 am (UTC)Agreed. I disliked the Spike as a victim image we were given in season 6 and I really hated the way Buffy behaved.
i also have to agree that love is a rather selfish thing.
I can't judge. I haven't seen that, but I haven't actually seen enough relationships, clearly enough, to make an estimation for agreeing or disagreeing with the idea.
I do agree that one of the really attractive aspects of Spike is that he was always honest.