Spike as a character and how he changes

[thismaz]

Someone on my flist made a post about how Spike's character developed during the series and asked what, besides love, could have made him shift from villain to hero. It's locked, so if you can't see it, you won't and if you can, you already know who that was. *g*

I started to ramble in a comment, until I realised I was going on for far too long to be polite in someone else's LJ. So I moved it all here.


My interpretation of Spike and his personal journey...

Firstly, I believe that the reason Spike is such a popular character is because he is so malleable; he does change. We see a different manifestation of him in each season and, in seasons 4, 5, 6 and 7, he mutates from one to the other over the course of the preceding one.

From the point of view of the dynamic of the show, one of the interesting things about him is that he is the only character who is first presented to us as a villain but ends up a hero. All the others, Angel included, are presented to us as 'good'. They may deviate into evil, but we know they can be redeemed, because they were good before.

I don't like the term Love's Bitch, not only because it has become a fanfic cliché, but also because, although Spike uses it about himself he does so ironically (which is not to say untruthfully) and as a label it can too easily close our thinking down into a 'Spike is a victim of love' position in all his romantic relationships.

Similarly, I think there is far too much emphasis placed in fan fiction on Spike caring for Dru. She was sick when we first meet them, but we don't know how long ago they were in Prague. Anyone who thinks that the Dru we see in China, or in London in 1880, or the Dru in the latter half of s2 and later, is in need of 'looking after' hasn't watched the same series I did. The whole 'cared for Dru for 100 years' argument that portrays Dru as perpetual and incompetent child, is totally ridiculous. (Hee, I wouldn't have made a statement as strong as that on someone else's LJ either).

Yes, Spike needs to love. Yes, he needs to be needed. But those aren't his only important motivational traits.

William had a head full of dreams and ideals. He went to a party and got shot down, twice, by people who mocked and rejected everything he believed in and rejected him. Then he died - at a moment of emotional crux, when his faith in humanity had been knocked over and he had been cast out of 'his place' in the world. (On a side note Liam didn't have a problem with the world in general - only with his father. Liam died in a state of personal and individual rebellion against his father. Since my premise is that the state of mind, or the dominant emotion, of the human has a lasting influence upon the vampire, this is important. Angelus has no humanity in him because he turned against humanity at a personal level.) Spike might have turned against humanity in general, but he didn't turn against his own. That was actually what William was clinging to when he died.

Spike needs the security of belonging - not necessarily to someone, but he needs to have a place in the world.

As for his journey from villain to hero:
Being cast off by Dru was a necessary start point - he lost his place.
The chip was the pivot point. There's no question there - it put him in a position where he lost his power and it led him to consort with the Scoobies.
Powerless and lost he took any scrap he could get, until he brought it all crashing down around his own ears.

Did he go looking for his soul? I don't think so. What he says when he wins his challenge in the cave is: Make me what I was. So Buffy can get what she deserves.

Why did he get it? Maybe because the demon in Africa knew better than Spike did himself, what it was he needed. He certainly didn't grant Spike's wish in any way that reflects Spike's words. Spike became a vampire with a soul. That's hardly what he was. But with The First looming on the horizon in Sunnydale, it could be that the demon took a wider view of 'what Buffy deserves', that had nothing to do with love.

And yet, the soul is the point at which he achieves the potential to be redeemed, according to Jossverse lore. So maybe he was made back into what he was - after all, in this context, what is a human but a person with the ability to choose whether to fight against evil or co-operate with it.

So coming back to the question (with apologies for the ramble) what, besides love of Buffy, could motivate Spike to change?


I could see him making the shift without falling in love with Buffy, but I think the spuffy was an accelerant, that it was the means by which he eventually destroyed his own place in the Scooby camp and that was what sent him to Africa.

Comments

[shapinglight]

Would agree with most of this, except that I do think Spike went looking for his soul (and Joss, Fury, Espenson etc have all said so). That doesn't mean I think he knew what he was looking for. I think he had no clue what it would do to him (how could he? He hadn't had one for so long), he just knew he needed to change.

To me, this explains all his 'that bitch' comments in the cave. He was angry with Buffy because she'd made him feel that way, when, as a vampire, he shouldn't have cared that he'd hurt her.

I do like the qualitative difference you posit between Angelus and William. It certainly works for me. And I agree about Dru. She's very powerful. Not sure why people can't see that.

I could see him making the shift without falling in love with Buffy, but I think the spuffy was an accelerant, that it was the means by which he eventually destroyed his own place in the Scooby camp and that was what sent him to Africa.

I like this -ie. that you've found another reason, apart from just his love for Buffy, that spurred him to change. However, I think it's arguable that he was out of the Scoobie camp well before the AR - since Buffy came back from the dead, in fact.

ETA: I would have left my post open if I could have, but the person who annoyed me so much has an LJ and I didn't want to start a row so it seemed better to flock. I already know that arguing with this person is a waste of time.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Joss, Fury, Espenson etc have all said so
Have they? I didn't know that. I don't tend to follow the off-screen stories. But I'm afraid I don't actually place too much weight on post-event rationalisations. Joss and gang are hardly the poster children for continuity. *g* I think they left it open at the end of season 6, because they hadn't yet decided what they were going to do with him in season 7.

That doesn't mean I think he knew what he was looking for.
I agree, that is sort of implicit in my argument. I think he wanted something, yes, to change, but I think he thought he wanted to change back to when unlife was simpler.

Not sure why people can't see that.
*sigh* I know. Spike and Dru together were such wonderful villains.

I like this ... However, I think it's arguable that he was out of the Scoobie camp well before the AR
Thank you. ... I would draw a distinction between him having a place in the Scooby Gang and him having a place in their camp. Yes, he had indeed lost the tentative place as a member of the team that he held during the summer Buffy was dead. But he still had a role with the Buffy part of the camp. With the attack on her he lost all hope of that meagre place too.

[shapinglight]

Joss, Fury, Espenson etc have all said so
Have they? I didn't know that

Blimey, Maz, I'm astonished that you don't. I thought it was common knowledge. However, it's not all off-screen. Spike wanting a soul is made canon in season 7 and AtS season 5, where both the First Evil and Pavayne taunt him for it - and since both of them are taunting him for his weakness and for how stupid he was in thinking getting a soul would automatically make everything better, I see no reason to think they were lying (also bearing in mind Anya's comment that when she was evil, she told the truth all the time).

I don't think he wanted to regress. I genuinely think he wanted to make himself able to 'give Buffy what she deserves.' If all he meant was kill her, why bother with the trials at all? The chip already didn't work on her.

As for Dru, had another thought about what you said about Spike not really looking after her all the time, which is that, this may be true in some senses, but I bet she was crap at map-reading.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

I thought it was common knowledge.
*laughs* It might be common knowledge, if you bought the magazines or frequented the chat boards. I never have. I love the story and the world of the Buffy 'verse. I'm not really interested in the personalities and motivations of the people who made it.

Spike wanting a soul is made canon in season 7 and AtS season 5
*g* by which time he had it, so it was too late to do anything except claim it was what he wanted and defend its existence against anyone who thought it was a mockery of demonhood. All of us do the post event justification thing when things turn out differently from how we'd hoped.
But I actually said he thought he wanted to change back to when unlife was simpler. I also think the demon knew better than him what he really needed.

I genuinely think he wanted to make himself able to 'give Buffy what she deserves.'
We can agree it differ. It's more a difference of emphasis than anything else (ETA: You are saying he consciously wanted his soul. I am saying he needed his soul, but he didn't consciously know that). To expand - I think he wanted to go back to when life was simple, when he could hunt humans, when he didn't love Buffy, when he knew the rules and was at the top of the food chain, when he had certainty about his desires and his place, when his world was care free. The thing was, what he wanted from the demon was not as simple as just getting the chip out. He wanted the last four years to have been different. He wouldn't have killed Buffy, so the chip not working on her isn't relevant. But he wanted to want to.

but I bet she was crap at map-reading.
*laughing* Oh, thank you for that thought. I bet you're right. *grins and tips hat*

[shapinglight]

One final point- Spike wasn't defending himself from the First Evil. He just sat and took what it said to him when it taunted him. And why taunt him with something that wasn't true? And why say what he said in the church scene in BY about how Angel should have told him what it was like to have a soul if he hadn't asked for it knowingly? Why would he think that Angel should have warned him about something he didn't think was going to happen in the first place?

I'm sorry. I can't accept that everything he said to Buffy in that scene was a self-serving lie, especially given his mental state at the time.

Like you say, we will most definitely have to agree to disagree on this because to me, Spike actively wanting his soul is the most crucial point in his whole story, without which, I'm afraid, everything that comes later becomes a nonsense to me.

I'm not saying I think his motives were pure when he asked for it. I think there was a definite element of 'that'll show her' in him wanting it, but I do think he wanted it, while at the same time hating himself, and Buffy, for the fact that he felt that way.

Spike: How many times do I have to tell you, Dru, this car cannot bloody fly!
Dru: But Spike, the stars say to go straight up.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

So we declare a friendly truce?
*g* We can also have an animated discussion on Friday night, if we have the energy.

I never thought Spike's words to Buffy in the church were a self-serving lie. Far from it. *pulls up the scripts, to double check*

Straight up? *laughs* I love it!

[shapinglight]

We can also have an animated discussion on Friday night, if we have the energy.

Er - possibly. Have to warn you, though, I get very wound up on this subject, as you've probably noticed.

I never thought Spike's words to Buffy in the church were a self-serving lie. Far from it

Yes, but they'd have to be, wouldn't they, if he didn't want his soul, since he says he did it 'for her - to be hers.'

Aargh! Can't go on talking about this - not without alcohol.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it is getting a bit involved, isn't it. Alcohol? Great idea. Animated discussion? Maybe we draft in a few witnesses to act as referees *g*
No worries, hon. We can have the alcohol without the discussion as easily as with. See you soon. So looking forward to it.

[shapinglight]

Yes, looking forward to it.

[texanfan.livejournal.com]

Very interesting points. I don't agree with all of them, but that's what makes Spike such a fascinating character, he has so many layers different people can see different things in him.

I definitely agree that the presence of the soul gives him back the ability to choose. Soulless, his path is relatively set. He can do good actions for his own reasons, he can love but he can't really choose to do good for it's own sake.

Spike needing a place and adapting himself to fit in that place is my chief belief of how Spike operates. Angelus demanded he be bloodthirsty and ruthless and he was to fit in the family. Dru asked for a black knight, someone to dance attendance on her and feed her various insanities and he was fascinated with her beyond reason.

Buffy was a cunundrum because she changed her message. In season 5 she needed Spike to be a hero, and he did his best to oblige, no matter how imperfectly. In season 6, she changed him into a punching bag/sex toy and his confusion as he attmpted to shift is completely understandable. Season 7 becomes very interesting because suddenly Spike has his own moral compass without needing Buffy's as a guide. Changed the dynamic completely.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

*g* Yeah, he's such a malleable character isn't he? Out of curiosity, which bits do you not agree with?

Spike needing a place and adapting himself to fit in that place is ... how Spike operates.
That's a good way of putting it.

Season 7 ... Spike has his own moral compass without needing Buffy's as a guide.
Yes, that is very true (remembering him wanting praise for not eating from the injured in the Bronze when it was Trolled in season 5) in season 7 he became morally independent.

[texanfan.livejournal.com]

Primarily, I disagree that Spike didn't seek his soul on purpose. I think things he says in s7 bear out that he did seek it.

Also, whether or not Dru was helpless (clearly she wasn't) Spike states in Angel s5 that she's like a child and I think he often cared for her like one, even when she was healthy.

I like your theory about how the state in which they died informs the vampire they become. Since they obviously aren't all alike in level of humanity it makes a lot of sense.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Ah, you're with shapinglight on that one. That's fair enough. It's not my interpretation, but the information provided allows for both, I think. And that makes for a nice variety in the stories people write that consider the impact of the soul.

I agree that Dru has some fey, even childish, mannerisms, but that comment was made in one of the flash-back scenes - the one in the wedding coach, so therefore when Spike was just turned. Angelus says, she is a sweet plum. I mean, a bit dotty and brain-addled, but... and William disagrees, saying, She's not... She's just... It's like she's still got a bit of a child in her. So I tend to interpret that as him wanting to defend the sanity of his new true love (a lost cause) rather than meaning she actually needed looking after, as if she was a child.

Thank you. I must admit, I like that idea. For me, if answers a lot of the questions about why Angelus and Spike, and even Darla, are as they are.

[twilightofmagic.livejournal.com]

Very interesting analysis and it made me think. I'd always assumed he's driven by love. He can't help loving who he loves, but once there, he'll do anything for them. But he also spend a lot of time in isolation and copes with it well. He freeboots around, making a life wherever he finds it. Sometimes he'd connected--he seems to 'enjoy' being part of the Fanged Four. He mourns Dru intensely. He is horrified to discover he's become obsessed with Buffy. And in Angel, he slips into his role as part of that group, although with no choice at the beginning in his uncorporeal form. I don't think he went looking for a soul either, according to the way JM acted that part, though that's muddied by the fact that he hadn't been told what he was leaving Sunnydale to do so delivered the line as if he was seeking revenge on Buffy. But once he had the soul, eventually he became driven by doing the right thing. By the mid to end of the last seaons, he'd accepted that Buffy didn't love him and nothing he did would change that (although I think it did). He goes into the final fight with everyone else because he chooses to go down fighting to preserve the world. And in Angel, at the end when he raises his hand to go along with Angel's plan, he's opting for the good fight against evil, and in the alleyway, once again is willing to give his all in a last ditch battle against overwhelming evil. Man, I have a hard time believing how people hate Spike. What a complex, fascinating character.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

I think one of the most significant aspects of my view of Spike is that to me he is definitely a demon who is very good at mimicking human behaviour. He's good because some parts of it are true, but they still come from a different motivation from the same emotions in a human.
I do think that love is one of his drivers, in that he remains a romantic with the idea that love is important and he wants it. Being a romantic (in the Victorian sense of the word) he will also expend a great deal of effort for the person he loves. But we never actually see him behave selflessly in any of his relationships, so I am not sure I can agree that he'll do anything for them if you mean he'd be willing to do something to his own detriment.
It's true that when Buffy was dead he babysat Dawn. I think he even grew to like her, to love her in a possessive sort of way, but my interpretation of the baby sitting is that it was part of his means of worming himself into the Scooby Gang and so hanging on to a part of Buffy.
he also spend a lot of time in isolation and copes with it well.
He does? He was still with Dru in 1997, so that's over 100 years. (I see the party in Madrid that led to the submarine as a holiday from her or even separate hunting for one night, not a sign that he spent a lot of time alone.) The only times we see him alone, are once in s3, where he is not dealing well and during part of s4, where I would also argue he is not dealing, and during the Lindsey/Doyle deception in AtS 5, which he would never have fallen for if he weren't feeling excluded from the fang gang.
I have a hard time believing how people hate Spike. What a complex, fascinating character.
Oh I do so agree.

[tabaqui]

Ah, Spike. I do so love him.
:)

I love your refutation of 'love's bitch'. That get so overused, and is used to make him pathetic rather than empathetic, which is what he is, to a degree. Spike *gets* it. He gets all of them, on a very deep level. He knows the hurt of being the 'odd man out', he knows loneliness and rejection, he knows what it is to be the strongest one, to love without hope, to smash anything that gets in his way.

That doesn't mean that he *cares*, or that he will be moved to do anything or help anyone, but he *does* get it.

I don't think he went looking for his soul, and frankly i was very, very unhappy that Mr. Whedon went down that road. Spike was *already* acting with a conscience before he got this soul back - he didn't actually need it. It was just...gimmicky, to me, and not pertinent at all.

I think that him falling for Buffy - toxic as it was - was much more of a motivator than the chip or the soul ever could have been. The chip was, to me, the lazy way of making him part of the group. If he'd gotten it out sometime during the 'Glory' episodes, he'd have stayed and done exactly what he did with it. He *had* the capacity to think outside himself, he simply didn't often choose not to. I mean - when he can't bite Willow? He *reassures her* that she's desirable and biteable. Nothing Angelus would do, or Darla...

Darla said, in essence, what you were before you died informs all that you become. It's so obvious, when you see William, how he impacted the demon.

I don't even know if i'm being coherent, here, heh. But i love talking about Spike. :)

*i also rather think that the whole deal with Spike 'relying' on the Scoobies for food/money was lazy writing, as i've thought of about five work-arounds for the chip, as have a lot of other writers. Annoying!*

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

I love your refutation of 'love's bitch'.
And I in turn love your summary of his personality.

Spike was *already* acting with a conscience before he got this soul back - he didn't actually need it. It was just...gimmicky, to me, and not pertinent at all.
Hmmm, there I think I have to disagree. In the Joss 'verse, a soul is necessary for moral choice. I think he was still acting from selfish motives until he got the soul and he only gained a conscience and the motivation to act to his own detriment for someone else's sake in s7.

He *had* the capacity to think outside himself, he simply didn't often choose to.
I do agree, but I don't think that contradicts my previous point. The reassuring of Willow was just the natural politeness of a Victorian gentleman, translated into demon terms. It was also a way of disarming her hostility.

I also rather think that the whole deal with Spike 'relying' on the Scoobies for food/money was lazy writing
And there I also totally agree with you. Unfortunately, it's part of the canon of the world we play with, so unless there is a reason to rework it... I just love that first scene in Sweeter Far Than Flowing Honey.

[tabaqui]

I think he was still acting from selfish motives until he got the soul</i See, and there i have to say no. What was his selfish motive to stick around after Buffy died? Even when he was relegated to glorified baby-sitter? Or, why did he 'selfishly' bonk Tara to prove she was human? He left right after, didn't stick around for a 'thanks' - not that he got one - and certainly never brought it up again... I dunno. The 'selfish' argument is used a lot, but motives for the 'souled' are often selfish, too, and nobody complains about that. And so what if it was? He still did the deeds, still helped the 'good guys'. Even if he was doing it to impress his girl - kind of like Buffy wanted Riley to think she was 'cool' - it was still a good thing. I dunno. The 'selfish' argument always annoys me. As does Mr. Whedon's business with souls. Grrrrr. If a soul is so all-fired great, than why are their mass murderers and serial killers? He was way too black and white for me. And thank you! I loved writing 'Sweeter Far' - so much damn fun. To me, *that* is Spike, chipped but still the demon. Making *actual* trouble, doing *actual* harm, and gloating all the while.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, What was his selfish motive to stick around after Buffy died?
According to my argument, the feeling that he had a place. As I said to shapinglight above - My interpretation of the baby sitting in this argument is that it was part of his means of worming himself into the Scooby Gang and so hanging on to a part of Buffy.

Or, why did he 'selfishly' bonk Tara to prove she was human?
Well, there was a certain amount of frustration at their dithering involved. Plus, he knew he'd get the credit, even if it was not acknowledged and why hang around to be shouted at. *g* But I'll grant you, that's a good objection.

The 'selfish' argument is used a lot, but motives for the 'souled' are often selfish, too
Absolutely true. A lot of the time. Neither a soul nor a conscience are a guarentee of 'good behaviour', but in the Joss 'verse, the lack of a soul is the lack of a moral compass. Soulless, he was a sociopath (defined at MedicineNet as - A pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others and inability or unwillingness to conform to what are considered to be the norms of society... manifested by a pattern of irresponsible and antisocial behavior as indicated by academic failure, poor job performance, illegal activities, recklessness, and impulsive behavior... Symptoms may include... an inability to tolerate boredom...) but to me, meaning someone incapable of recognising that the wants and needs of others have any validity. Maybe 'selfish' is not the correct term, but I hesitated to use sociopath too. Words carry so many connotations in addition to their definitions.

He still did the deeds, still helped the 'good guys'.
Yes, he did. And when he expected praise for not eating from the injured in The Bronze when it got Trolled in season 5, Buffy looked at him in disgust because he really couldn't understand that his motivation mattered.

Mr. Whedon's business with souls. Grrrrr.
*laughs* Yeah, maybe, but again, that's the sandpit I choose to play in, so his rules apply.

To me, *that* is Spike, chipped but still the demon.
Yeah, that's why I loved that story so much - demon Spike, being clever and sneaky and getting his revenge.

edited, to put the italics right and to add the bit about boredom *g* because I couldn't resit.

[tabaqui]

I agree that he wanted to be part of *something* - wanted the respect of the rest of them, but i think he wanted that no matter what. Respect was so lacking in his human life, i think it was very important to him in his unlife. But, again - you say 'worming', like it's a bad thing, or shameful. Seems to me that when you work, and are hurt, and suffer indignities and/or actual physical harm for people, whether it be to get a girl to 'love' you or for any other reason, it's not out of line to hope or expect that that group will eventually give you a nod, a backslap, a 'thank you'. I always despised the 'bully on the playground' way that the Scoobies treated Spike. He can't kick back so.....let's kick him again! Lame, and not what i'd want my 'heroes' to be doing.

Him, a demon, *not* eating or otherwise being demony around injured and tasty people *is* something to be praised for! Buffy got grossed out when Angel drank animal blood. Just...again...annoying.

I think 'sociopath' is too strong, too, since that implies, to me, a lack of control. I think Spike was in total control of what he did, and about ninety nine percent of the time just went with whatever was the most 'fun'. But i think he could, and did, think of others and adjust his behavior accordingly from time to time. And yeah, boredom would have had him jumping out of his skin, and to me that was a lot of what made him do some of the ill-advised things he did. He was bored to the point of insanity.

I rather toss out Mr. Whedon's rules, as they annoy me *so fucking much* sometimes i just want to smack him. Issues, he has them.

I know, i know. I sound like a Spike apologist. But i really just don't think that shoving a soul in Spike made him omg!so much better!! and i really, *really* don't think that having a 'soul' somehow puts you at the top of the food chain, as souls are really just a human construct, after all.

I guess i want to have more faith in the underlying *self* of people and/or vampires, rather than believing that they are worthless without this possibly not existent thing. If you have to have a 'soul' to love, then Spike *had* his. He just didn't have a conscience.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Respect was so lacking in his human life, i think it was very important to him in his unlife.
Absolutely agree. That goes back to my central thesis about what shapes the vampire.

you say 'worming', like it's a bad thing, or shameful
No, that connotation wasn't intended. 'Worm' does not refer to the living creature, but to the engineering principle, where it is a gradual penetration and each bit of forward progress creates more leverage to assist in the next. There are connotations of trying to be unnoticed but no connotations of shame.

I always despised the 'bully on the playground' way that the Scoobies treated Spike.
See, I don't disagree with you there. The behaviour of the scoobies to Spike when he was first chipped was understandable - they were worried for their lives, they knew what he was, they didn't know if the chip would last (so why the hell did Giles unchain him and then send him off to stay with Xander, by himself? *growls at Giles*) But later, and particularly after the summer after Glory... *growls again*
I am certainly not going to be an apologist for the Scoobies, but I wasn't talking about the Scoobies.

I think 'sociopath' is too strong, too, since that implies, to me, a lack of control.
Ah, connotations again. To me, there is absolutely no suggestion of lack of control there. The important bit to me is - someone incapable of recognising that the wants and needs of others have any validity. Which also doesn't mean he wouldn't help someone else. It does mean that in a situation where he had to choose between someone else's best interests and his own, he would not choose the other person's. But if there were no cost to him, or the cost was acceptable, he would actually do something to help someone else, even if there was no obvious gain to himself (assuming he was interested enough in the person to notice their need as an actual need).

I rather toss out Mr. Whedon's rules, as they annoy me
*laughs* Well, I probably do too, occasionally. But I also enjoy the challenge of working around them.

i really just don't think that shoving a soul in Spike made him omg!so much better
It didn't. All it did was give him the reference points to make choices.

i really, *really* don't think that having a 'soul' somehow puts you at the top of the food chain
I don't actually understand what you mean here. Surely he was at the top of the food chain as an unchipped, soulless vampire. Having a soul couldn't put him back there. You can't be at the top of the food chain if you don't eat the second to top.

souls are really just a human construct
Ah, theology. *steps carefully away* *g* That's a different issue and I would be quite happy to swap views on our respective belief systems, but not on this entry.

If you have to have a 'soul' to love, then Spike *had* his.
I think it's clear that even in the Joss 'verse, you can love quite well without a soul.

He just didn't have a conscience.
*g* And there you sum up a huge part of my thesis, in a few words.

You've been having fun here, I hope.

[smwright.livejournal.com]

This is highly interesting reading. May I...?

Make me what I was. So Buffy can get what she deserves. Spike was terribly angry at this point. I remember. I agree with you; he seemed to want his 'simple' undeadness back. *nods* Yes, that fits. Also, his face registered shock at something other than the pain of being resouled when he realized that was what was happening.

But with The First looming on the horizon in Sunnydale, it could be that the demon took a wider view of 'what Buffy deserves', that had nothing to do with love. *nods again* Buffy was ever the atypical slayer. She had the Scoobies, and she began her fight in earnest (that is, in Sunnydale) with a hero. She no longer had one. The talisman was meant for a hero, but who could wear it? Buffy was the general of the troops, but she was without her counterpart, and that is not to say love interest. Perhaps the spuffy stems more from her inability to differentiate between hero and lover than it does from any motivation Spike may have needed.

Spike needs the security of belonging - not necessarily to someone, but he needs to have a place in the world. Ah, here is the only place where I might halfway disagree with you. I think Spike's need to belong is the need to belong with another person (not really 'to'). In many ways, I think Spike begins (rather, William begins) as the most human of all Joss' characters, and the need to affiliate is the fundamental human motive (as I teach repeatedly in social psych). Bearing this in mind, it isn't unrealistic to see Spike's romantic (i.e., chivalrous but not necessarily deeply loving) behaviors vis-a-vis Buffy leading to an emotional entanglement that nearly dooms them all.

On reflection, it is very Arthurian.

And I'm done now. Well deduced, love.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

May I...?
Please do. The more the merrier. Thanks for joining in.

Buffy was the general of the troops, but she was without her counterpart
Umm, she had Faith.

more from her inability to differentiate between hero and lover than it does from any motivation Spike may have needed.
Spike fell for Buffy in s5. At that point she was happy to take advantage of his skills, but wasn't interested in requiting his sexual desires. It was in s6 that she did that and it was a very destructive relationship for her, as she eventually realised.
I do think Spike needs to love. I just don't think it is his only motivation, as many fanfic stories tend to make it.

I think Spike's need to belong is the need to belong with another person (not really 'to').
Not disagreeing with you there. Belonging with a group of people is to have a place. He didn't love the rest of the Scooby Gang, but he wanted his place among them.
But as a demon, when he loves, his love is essentially selfish. He wants to own the object of his love. When Angelus steals Dru, Spike hates it. When Buffy begins to resist their entanglement he tries to blackmail her by threatening to out her to her friends. She is stronger than him, so he can't use physical force.
See, I am drawing a distinction between his needing-a-place and his love motivated actions. They are often mixed up together, but I do see them as distinct.

Edited, because I meant to add that bit and forgot I hadn't. *g*

[smwright.livejournal.com]

Umm, she had Faith. Right. She did. But Faith was never Buffy's hero. Buffy always resented Faith. Actually, just as I type this, I begin to wonder something... I wonder if Buffy somehow needed (rather than deserved) the illusion of romanticism in her counterpart to not feel the jealousy and competition she felt with females? (She had the same issues with Kendra when she first arrived on the scene, too.) Huh. Just something to think about for me, I guess.

At that point she was happy to take advantage of his skills, but wasn't interested in requiting his sexual desires. True. She was, however, also very coy for a long time in her reactions both to Spike and to random others about her r'ship with Spike. "Spike? No..." One of my major problems with all of s6 wasn't the darkness (that many viewers seemed to dislike) but Buffy's behaviors toward Spike. I agree that the r'ship was destructive, but in many ways, so was hers with Angel. (In that she often hid it, she lied to those she loved about him, she was often unhappy in it, etc...) Both destructive, just in different ways. What I mean in my dislike of her behaviors was that she was overtly cruel, and this is so out of character for Buffy. I'm a social psychologist, and I write fiction. Every now and again? Sure, people do things OOC for themselves. To sustain that over practically an entire season really rubbed me the wrong way. I didn't just think she used him; I felt that she was written wrong for a long time. Toward the latter part of the season, that changed, and the character acknowledge what she had done. I don't know if that was planned all along or if Joss & Co. were backtracking, but I try not to take more about their r'ship from who we know them to both be and from s5 and s7 than from s6 (where, admittedly, most of the action occurred).

But as a demon, when he loves, his love is essentially selfish. Actually, I don't know that we disagree. I think your original thoughts re: William v. Liam here were brilliant, and this is insightful, too. What I would add is that I think all human love is basically selfish at the core. So, I would rephrase this to But as a human, when he loved, his love was essentially selfish. As a demon, he took less care to hide the fact than humans do.

*sighs* (*g*)

See, I am drawing a distinction between his needing-a-place and his love motivated actions. They are often mixed up together, but I do see them as distinct. This is, I think, our only area of quasi-disagreement (maybe). I think they are distinct, but I think there is a direct line from the love-motivated actions to the needing-a-place (or person).

Wow. Okay. Time for work, woman-who-makes-me-think!

[smwright.livejournal.com]

I meant to say "try to take more" not whatever I said that was wrong! *g*

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

*g* I got that. Thanks.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Going off line here, because I really want to continue this discussion, but it's getting off topic. *g* I'll email you, which also has the advantage of allowing the conversation to continue for longer, if we wish it to.

Go on. You should be working, anyway. *g* Good luck.

[tabaqui]

Jumping in here - can't help it!

I totally agree with you about Buffy and season six. She was needlessly, continuously cruel in ways that just *did not* sit well. Particularly i got so damn angry when Spike repeatedly asked her to just leave him alone, and she *would not*. She could ban him from her home, she could keep him away from her friends - she didn't *need* to see him if she didn't want to, but she just kept coming back to him, usually only to get pissed and hit him.

*and when the other person can't hit back...blech.*

The Angel/Buffy 'ship was also, yes, as you say, very unhealthy. And also boring, but that's just me. :)

And i also have to agree that love is a rather selfish thing. People are all 'that person is *mine*, i love them' and often do rather silly, or weird, or ugly things to prove it/keep them. So, yes, his being a demon meant he could say or do without trying to justify himself or hide his actions. But i don't think it made him a 'worse' person or anything else.

Fun stuff. :)

[smwright.livejournal.com]

But i don't think it made him a 'worse' person or anything else.

If anything, in my opinion, it made him more honest. Spike was much more honest than Buffy in s6, but then he'd had 150 years to come to terms with who and what he was.

[tabaqui]

Yes, exactly!
I feel the same way.
:)

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

I do agree that one of the most attractive aspects of Spike is that he was always honest.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

She was needlessly, continuously cruel in ways that just *did not* sit well.
Agreed. I disliked the Spike as a victim image we were given in season 6 and I really hated the way Buffy behaved.

i also have to agree that love is a rather selfish thing.
I can't judge. I haven't seen that, but I haven't actually seen enough relationships, clearly enough, to make an estimation for agreeing or disagreeing with the idea.
I do agree that one of the really attractive aspects of Spike is that he was always honest.

[sparrow2000.livejournal.com]

Just come in from work so the brain isn't firing at the moment, so I will come back and comment properly when I have something sensible to contribute.

I am almost under the table reading your 'love's bitch' comment because I know I used it in the piece you're betaing at the moment. So I can anticipate at least one of the comments coming my way *g*

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

because I know I used it in the piece you're betaing at the moment.
*g* Yes, you did. But you used it in the sense that Spike said it in the series - as a ironic comment on himself, so I'm not going to object. (ETA: Also, in your world, he never said it to Angel and Buffy, did he? That event in the magic shop never happened.) It's when it's used seriously or to justify wimpy Spike that I hate it.

[orchidluv.livejournal.com]

Good points. I'm totally with you on the soul issue - Spike was angry and hurting and lashing out. The last thing he wanted was a soul, he wanted the chip out. I see the demon as the proverbial 'monkey's paw' wish granter - gives you what you ask for but in a way you'll hate. Though I can totally see Spike claiming he got the soul on purpose as part of one-upmanship with Angel. (I'm with you on the post-Africa revisionism by Joss & Co.). But, hey, Angel never looked for his soul, so I don't think that counts one way or another.

I do see Spike as having taken care of Dru - but only during spells on insanity. I realize she was sick in Season 3, but even after she got well she would have freak out moments, requiring either Angelus or Spike to calm her down. But not nurse-maiding her like he was when she was so ill, that level of care was obviously new.

One factor to his journey that I would add as a key factor in his development was the whole fiasco with his mother and the trauma she inflicted when he turned then staked her. Plus, it was one of the rare times when canon actually did give a character a chance to contront and deal with the trauma and I love how Spike came away from that knowing for sure that his mother had loved him.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

I see the demon as the proverbial 'monkey's paw' wish granter
Yes, exactly.

he would have freak out moments, requiring either Angelus or Spike to calm her down
Did they? I remember them watching her with fascination and I remember Angelus trying to coax more information out of her, but I can't pull to mind any instances where they had to calm her. *is probably wilfully forgetting those *g**

the whole fiasco with his mother and the trauma she inflicted
Yes, I missed that out, didn't I? I agree with you that it was certainly very significant in his shaping of the Spike persona, and also a very important moment in his coming to terms with his soul season 7. Thank you for reminding me.

[tabaqui]

Aaaaaaaand, hopping in here, too... A couple of times Dru had visions that rather freaked her, but yeah, the 'total care' thing Spike had to do right before he did the spell with her and Angel was something utterly new. I've *never* understood people who want to write Dru as sickly, childish, and helpless. Spike himself made it clear that they didn't live joined at the hip, and Dru was not only a powerful seer but a powerful and dangerous vampire who killed a Slayer and was perfectly capable of commanding other vampires and living an organized, if a bit eclectic, life on her own.

*luffs Dru so very much*

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Dru is wonderful whenever she appears in either series. Spike and Dru together... *loves season 2*

[meredevachon]

I haven't anything to add to this that hasn't already been better written and more thought out than what I could say, but thank you for starting this discussion. I've quite enjoyed reading people's thoughts.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you enjoyed it. Thanks for stopping by to say so.

[quinara]

Hello! I was just popping in to make sure you didn't mind that I've friended you.

Love this post, by the way. I'm too tired to say anything sensible, but it's really interesting. You make a very good point about Dru - Spike, for all his virtues, can't exactly be called patient. It always makes my nose wrinkle when fic turns him into this bizarre experienced-carer-for-the-elderly figure.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Of course I don't mind, not at all. And having just read your story, I have friended you back.
Thank you. I'm glad you enjoyed it. I always liked Spike and Dru together in canon, but it's only recently I've tried to write her. Thinking about her, in order to do so, led me to realise why I have often found her less than satisfying in some fanfic I've read.
Thanks for stopping by.

[quinara]

Yay! Thanks for the friending.

I think one of the most telling bits in canon was when Dru was going on about Acathla and Angelus is cooing over the fact she saw it in her head, whereas Spike just retorts, "No, you ninny, she read it in the morning paper." I wouldn't be surprised if after a hundred years quite a lot of mystery had gone out of Dru for Spike.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

*laughs* Yeah, that is a wonderful line. BtVS at it's comic best.
Personally I like to write a Spike who actually understands what Dru is talking about, so it is (hopefully) clear to the reader that although no one else might know what she's on about, what she says does make sense. You just have to understand her language, because sometimes it ain't English. *g*

[quinara]

I like to write a Spike who actually understands what Dru is talking about

*nods* That sounds very plausible. :)

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Well, if you're interested, chapter 23 of my latest long story has an example. You can find it here - http://thismaz.livejournal.com/30640.html

[quinara]

*reads*

That's very cool, I like it.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Thanks.