Spike as a character and how he changes

[thismaz]

Someone on my flist made a post about how Spike's character developed during the series and asked what, besides love, could have made him shift from villain to hero. It's locked, so if you can't see it, you won't and if you can, you already know who that was. *g*

I started to ramble in a comment, until I realised I was going on for far too long to be polite in someone else's LJ. So I moved it all here.


My interpretation of Spike and his personal journey...

Firstly, I believe that the reason Spike is such a popular character is because he is so malleable; he does change. We see a different manifestation of him in each season and, in seasons 4, 5, 6 and 7, he mutates from one to the other over the course of the preceding one.

From the point of view of the dynamic of the show, one of the interesting things about him is that he is the only character who is first presented to us as a villain but ends up a hero. All the others, Angel included, are presented to us as 'good'. They may deviate into evil, but we know they can be redeemed, because they were good before.

I don't like the term Love's Bitch, not only because it has become a fanfic cliché, but also because, although Spike uses it about himself he does so ironically (which is not to say untruthfully) and as a label it can too easily close our thinking down into a 'Spike is a victim of love' position in all his romantic relationships.

Similarly, I think there is far too much emphasis placed in fan fiction on Spike caring for Dru. She was sick when we first meet them, but we don't know how long ago they were in Prague. Anyone who thinks that the Dru we see in China, or in London in 1880, or the Dru in the latter half of s2 and later, is in need of 'looking after' hasn't watched the same series I did. The whole 'cared for Dru for 100 years' argument that portrays Dru as perpetual and incompetent child, is totally ridiculous. (Hee, I wouldn't have made a statement as strong as that on someone else's LJ either).

Yes, Spike needs to love. Yes, he needs to be needed. But those aren't his only important motivational traits.

William had a head full of dreams and ideals. He went to a party and got shot down, twice, by people who mocked and rejected everything he believed in and rejected him. Then he died - at a moment of emotional crux, when his faith in humanity had been knocked over and he had been cast out of 'his place' in the world. (On a side note Liam didn't have a problem with the world in general - only with his father. Liam died in a state of personal and individual rebellion against his father. Since my premise is that the state of mind, or the dominant emotion, of the human has a lasting influence upon the vampire, this is important. Angelus has no humanity in him because he turned against humanity at a personal level.) Spike might have turned against humanity in general, but he didn't turn against his own. That was actually what William was clinging to when he died.

Spike needs the security of belonging - not necessarily to someone, but he needs to have a place in the world.

As for his journey from villain to hero:
Being cast off by Dru was a necessary start point - he lost his place.
The chip was the pivot point. There's no question there - it put him in a position where he lost his power and it led him to consort with the Scoobies.
Powerless and lost he took any scrap he could get, until he brought it all crashing down around his own ears.

Did he go looking for his soul? I don't think so. What he says when he wins his challenge in the cave is: Make me what I was. So Buffy can get what she deserves.

Why did he get it? Maybe because the demon in Africa knew better than Spike did himself, what it was he needed. He certainly didn't grant Spike's wish in any way that reflects Spike's words. Spike became a vampire with a soul. That's hardly what he was. But with The First looming on the horizon in Sunnydale, it could be that the demon took a wider view of 'what Buffy deserves', that had nothing to do with love.

And yet, the soul is the point at which he achieves the potential to be redeemed, according to Jossverse lore. So maybe he was made back into what he was - after all, in this context, what is a human but a person with the ability to choose whether to fight against evil or co-operate with it.

So coming back to the question (with apologies for the ramble) what, besides love of Buffy, could motivate Spike to change?


I could see him making the shift without falling in love with Buffy, but I think the spuffy was an accelerant, that it was the means by which he eventually destroyed his own place in the Scooby camp and that was what sent him to Africa.

Comments

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, What was his selfish motive to stick around after Buffy died?
According to my argument, the feeling that he had a place. As I said to shapinglight above - My interpretation of the baby sitting in this argument is that it was part of his means of worming himself into the Scooby Gang and so hanging on to a part of Buffy.

Or, why did he 'selfishly' bonk Tara to prove she was human?
Well, there was a certain amount of frustration at their dithering involved. Plus, he knew he'd get the credit, even if it was not acknowledged and why hang around to be shouted at. *g* But I'll grant you, that's a good objection.

The 'selfish' argument is used a lot, but motives for the 'souled' are often selfish, too
Absolutely true. A lot of the time. Neither a soul nor a conscience are a guarentee of 'good behaviour', but in the Joss 'verse, the lack of a soul is the lack of a moral compass. Soulless, he was a sociopath (defined at MedicineNet as - A pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others and inability or unwillingness to conform to what are considered to be the norms of society... manifested by a pattern of irresponsible and antisocial behavior as indicated by academic failure, poor job performance, illegal activities, recklessness, and impulsive behavior... Symptoms may include... an inability to tolerate boredom...) but to me, meaning someone incapable of recognising that the wants and needs of others have any validity. Maybe 'selfish' is not the correct term, but I hesitated to use sociopath too. Words carry so many connotations in addition to their definitions.

He still did the deeds, still helped the 'good guys'.
Yes, he did. And when he expected praise for not eating from the injured in The Bronze when it got Trolled in season 5, Buffy looked at him in disgust because he really couldn't understand that his motivation mattered.

Mr. Whedon's business with souls. Grrrrr.
*laughs* Yeah, maybe, but again, that's the sandpit I choose to play in, so his rules apply.

To me, *that* is Spike, chipped but still the demon.
Yeah, that's why I loved that story so much - demon Spike, being clever and sneaky and getting his revenge.

edited, to put the italics right and to add the bit about boredom *g* because I couldn't resit.

[tabaqui]

I agree that he wanted to be part of *something* - wanted the respect of the rest of them, but i think he wanted that no matter what. Respect was so lacking in his human life, i think it was very important to him in his unlife. But, again - you say 'worming', like it's a bad thing, or shameful. Seems to me that when you work, and are hurt, and suffer indignities and/or actual physical harm for people, whether it be to get a girl to 'love' you or for any other reason, it's not out of line to hope or expect that that group will eventually give you a nod, a backslap, a 'thank you'. I always despised the 'bully on the playground' way that the Scoobies treated Spike. He can't kick back so.....let's kick him again! Lame, and not what i'd want my 'heroes' to be doing.

Him, a demon, *not* eating or otherwise being demony around injured and tasty people *is* something to be praised for! Buffy got grossed out when Angel drank animal blood. Just...again...annoying.

I think 'sociopath' is too strong, too, since that implies, to me, a lack of control. I think Spike was in total control of what he did, and about ninety nine percent of the time just went with whatever was the most 'fun'. But i think he could, and did, think of others and adjust his behavior accordingly from time to time. And yeah, boredom would have had him jumping out of his skin, and to me that was a lot of what made him do some of the ill-advised things he did. He was bored to the point of insanity.

I rather toss out Mr. Whedon's rules, as they annoy me *so fucking much* sometimes i just want to smack him. Issues, he has them.

I know, i know. I sound like a Spike apologist. But i really just don't think that shoving a soul in Spike made him omg!so much better!! and i really, *really* don't think that having a 'soul' somehow puts you at the top of the food chain, as souls are really just a human construct, after all.

I guess i want to have more faith in the underlying *self* of people and/or vampires, rather than believing that they are worthless without this possibly not existent thing. If you have to have a 'soul' to love, then Spike *had* his. He just didn't have a conscience.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Respect was so lacking in his human life, i think it was very important to him in his unlife.
Absolutely agree. That goes back to my central thesis about what shapes the vampire.

you say 'worming', like it's a bad thing, or shameful
No, that connotation wasn't intended. 'Worm' does not refer to the living creature, but to the engineering principle, where it is a gradual penetration and each bit of forward progress creates more leverage to assist in the next. There are connotations of trying to be unnoticed but no connotations of shame.

I always despised the 'bully on the playground' way that the Scoobies treated Spike.
See, I don't disagree with you there. The behaviour of the scoobies to Spike when he was first chipped was understandable - they were worried for their lives, they knew what he was, they didn't know if the chip would last (so why the hell did Giles unchain him and then send him off to stay with Xander, by himself? *growls at Giles*) But later, and particularly after the summer after Glory... *growls again*
I am certainly not going to be an apologist for the Scoobies, but I wasn't talking about the Scoobies.

I think 'sociopath' is too strong, too, since that implies, to me, a lack of control.
Ah, connotations again. To me, there is absolutely no suggestion of lack of control there. The important bit to me is - someone incapable of recognising that the wants and needs of others have any validity. Which also doesn't mean he wouldn't help someone else. It does mean that in a situation where he had to choose between someone else's best interests and his own, he would not choose the other person's. But if there were no cost to him, or the cost was acceptable, he would actually do something to help someone else, even if there was no obvious gain to himself (assuming he was interested enough in the person to notice their need as an actual need).

I rather toss out Mr. Whedon's rules, as they annoy me
*laughs* Well, I probably do too, occasionally. But I also enjoy the challenge of working around them.

i really just don't think that shoving a soul in Spike made him omg!so much better
It didn't. All it did was give him the reference points to make choices.

i really, *really* don't think that having a 'soul' somehow puts you at the top of the food chain
I don't actually understand what you mean here. Surely he was at the top of the food chain as an unchipped, soulless vampire. Having a soul couldn't put him back there. You can't be at the top of the food chain if you don't eat the second to top.

souls are really just a human construct
Ah, theology. *steps carefully away* *g* That's a different issue and I would be quite happy to swap views on our respective belief systems, but not on this entry.

If you have to have a 'soul' to love, then Spike *had* his.
I think it's clear that even in the Joss 'verse, you can love quite well without a soul.

He just didn't have a conscience.
*g* And there you sum up a huge part of my thesis, in a few words.

You've been having fun here, I hope.