Question about language.

[thismaz]

Or, about British v American spelling, to be more precise.

It goes like this - one day I was musing and that happened to coincide with me seeing a comment on a community post.

And that got me thinking.

And that hurt, so I stopped.

But I was still confused, or puzzled, or maybe interested, piqued, intrigued. You get the picture.

After a couple of weeks and another encounter with the question, I thought, 'I'll ask the flist. It's not a big flist, but it's knowledgeable.'



So this is me, asking.

I remember when I first joined the yahoo lists, I used to occasionally see warnings on stories saying "British spelling throughout", like it was something that had to be excused or apologised for and I thought that was weird.

See, the reason I don't understand the need to explain or apologise is because if I go down the High Street, to Waterston's or Borders, and buy a CJ Cherryh, Sara Paretsky or even a Raymond Chandler novel, it'll have been edited to change it to British spelling for the British market. Similarly, an American buying Terry Pratchett or JK Rowling will get American spelling throughout, when they buy their book in America.

I'll admit, I used to download stories and do a spelling conversion, to change them to British spelling, because American spelling jarred on me and threw me out of the flow of reading. But I've got used to it now, so I don't bother anymore. It's a global market on the Internet. If I buy from Amazon.com, instead of Amazon.co.uk, I know I'm likely to get the American edition of the book, complete with American spelling.

I take care to use American words when my American characters speak or I am directly in their heads. When looking at their cars they do say 'hood' instead of 'bonnet', 'trunk' instead of 'boot'. They walk on the sidewalk, not the pavement and they fall on their ass, not their arse. That's important, because our language, the words we use, are part of what defines us, it reflects and shapes the way we think. When the only way a reader can judge a character is through the description given by the writer and the words the writer puts in the character's mouth, using the right words is vital.

But, and here's the 'but', that doesn't mean I also have to change my spelling to American. The 'verse I write in originated as a US TV show but I'm not going to say that Xander realized something, instead of realising it, because that's not a colloquialism and it's not Xander's thoughts, it's me, the narrator describing the action. The way the word is spelt doesn't say anything about the character who is doing the realising.

That's my opinion, my stance, on the question.

Don't tell me I'm wrong, because it is a matter of opinion and mine is as valid as the contrary, but please do feel free to explain why you disagree (or why you agree).

I know this is a subject people get excited about, and I want to understand why the excitement, as much as why the stance.

Realising and realizing are the same word, just spelt differently.

I wouldn't expect an American to anglicise their spelling just because they are writing Torchwood or Doctor Who fic, so why do I occasionally see the expectation of American spelling in BtVS?

I can understand that as members of the only real empire in the western world at the moment, it is easy to assume that the American way is the only right way. Goodness knows, the British, in the days of the British Empire certainly made, lived and imposed the assumption that the British way was superior (or to be more exact, the English way, since it was really just English society that was held up as 'proper' and a small section of English society, at that *g*). Or am I wrong, is this last paragraph totally off track?

Any ideas about why I get this feeling that some people expect me to change my way of spelling?

And if it's true, can anyone explain why?

Comments

[trepkos.livejournal.com]

I pretty much do the same as you - use English words/spellings when in an English character's POV and American ones when in an American character's.
When simply narrating for a whole section, I'm always in English, regardless of the fact that BtVS is an American show.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

That seems like the sensible thing to do, to me.
Have you ever come across the suggestion that you shouldn't, or is it my imagination?

[trepkos.livejournal.com]

Not specifically directed at me, nor at anyone else, I don't think.
And I have had concrit so I think someone would have said.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

*grins* So maybe it's all invented by posts like this and not an issue at all. It's possible. *laughs* Wouldn't that be ironic - if we were all feeding each other's paranoia? :-)

[sunnyd-lite.livejournal.com]

I'm Canadian, which kind of makes me a dual citizen as far as spelling/language usage is concerned. e.g. I would use chalk to colour the sidewalk.

If my fandom is based in the US I tend to Americanize the spelling, especially, as you point out if it's character based. Willow would be coloring the sidewalk. Giles however would keep his "u"s.

If I'm writing original fic, it depends again where the story is based (and what market I'm thinking of) A Toronto story gets Canada spelling (that wacky hybrid), if it's set in Europe, UK English is used, and state side? Bye bye "u"s and I'll add in the "z".

Why? *shrug* I guess I'm making an assumption that my readers for my fanfic are predominately American and I don't want to jar them out of the story, like you were.

Hmm that's a longer rant than I thought. May I have my 2 cents please?

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Hee, the advantage of being bilingual. *g* I think I'd get confused.
I guess you are going to end up jarring some people, whatever you do. It's a global audience you have. If they happen to be on the 'wrong' side of the spelling divide occasionally, it's up to them to adapt, in recognition of that fact.
*hands you two cents* That rant was probably worth a dollar, but if you're selling it cheap, I wont argue *g*

[meredevachon]

You make some very good points, and it's something I've worried & wondered about myself more than once (http://meredevachon.livejournal.com/264887.html for a smattering of people's thoughts).

Fandoms tend to develop their own internal etiquette for so many things regarding the writing & posting of fic, and sometimes that's a good thing. Others it's unrealistic and just a big pain. And of course, it just gets worse when people come into a fandom bringing their expectations from previous fandoms.

Personally, I say spell the way that works for you.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

*laughs* Which I contributed to. That explains one (or two) of my recent encounters with the question. There were a few others too.
Personally, I say spell the way that works for you.
Right back at you, hon.

[sparrow2000.livejournal.com]

I've told you before about thinking, it just makes your brain cell tired!

I know we've had this conversation before, but like you I would write in UK spelling as that's my education and heritage, but would use the appropriate colloquialisms which define the character.

It's interesting what sunny_d_lite says about Canadian spelling. Since being here I've got very confused sometimes, as it's a strange mixture of both English and American spelling - the 'z' is there, but so is the 'u'

Anyway, that's my tuppence worth, stick to what you feel is right for you - there's no need to apologise for it.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

*g* I may have only one brain cell, but I have sharp eyes and I can spot an insult when it's shoved in my face. *laughs* Nice on, hon - subtle, I almost missed it.
Sounds like Canadian is like older British spelling (*whispers* my parents use the 'z', don't tell anyone).
*g* You know me, I really don't feel a need to apologise. I feel annoyed by the suggestion that I should *g*

[tabaqui]

I frankly don't understand people who are all Nazi about origin-based spelling. I want Xander, for instance, to say 'hood' and 'elevator' and 'sweater' rather than 'bonnet', 'lift', and 'jumper'. But i can't care less if he says 'colour', because 'colour' is just as correct as 'color'.

Perhaps it's that i grew up reading books by English/UK authors and the spellings weren't changed and i'm comfortable with it.

Or perhaps because i'm *not* one of those American's who thinks America is always right and everybody else always wrong and why can't you just be more like us?
*sporks those people*

I say, spell how you want to spell, use appropriate word-choice for items, etc., and ignore the nay-sayers.
:)

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Well, since I used to do the spelling conversion thing, until I became acclimatised to American spelling, I can understand that unfamiliar spelling can be distracting. I can understand that for some people it is so distracting that they don't read it. That's their loss, for not being adaptable. My attitude is that the global village puts the onus on the recipient to adapt, rather than them expect the producer to adapt.
And I might have been a little bit extreme with that last paragraph *g*
I say, spell how you want to spell ... and ignore the nay-sayers.
Thanks, I will. No fear for that. *g*

[tabaqui]

My attitude is that the global village puts the onus on the recipient to adapt, rather than them expect the producer to adapt.

I agree 100 percent. Adapt or die, for fuck's sake - the world won't wait on you.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

laughs*

[willayork.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, so i openly admit that i skimmed the last part of that but I do agree with you. Personally, what I think it comes down to is some question of context. For your realized/realised example, for example, that's more likely to show up in a passage of narration and is just something you have to accept/expect/deal with if you're going to read something written by an American or a Brit.
On the other hand when you have (for example) xander speaking or thinking it does need to be in Americanisms because otherwise it isn't Xander!
(This is actually the same thing that drives me NUTS about people who apparently have never heard of a contraction! In the heat of the moment noone's going to scream "NO, do not touch that!" they'll say "NO, *don't* touch it")
And, if you're writing BtVS it's the same as that very distinctive SoCal speech pattern that all the scoobies use. Yes, I can read a story without it, but it's not right

The only other consideration I can say is that, to some extent, I think what your readers 'expect' from you reflects what they've been exposed to. \
I, for example, spend alot of time in Harry Potter too so I'm probably a bit more used to the English spelling of things. Now, someone who has had no exposure to British comedy (I could repeat Monty Python *long* before i was "old enough" to actually watch it), speech patterns (I have family that live outside of Birmingham now and used to live around the corner), or spelling differences (i lived in and spent a year at uni in london) are just not going to understand that you're not "misspelling" things. And really, i think that's why some authors 'warn' about british spelling. A) it's kinda polite B)it tells your reader you do actually know what you're doing (thank you very much) and C) it probably shuts up some of the people that would otherwise comment.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Thanks for joining in here. Most people have reassured me that I should do what I want, which is lovely of them, but I was never in danger of not doing that. *g*

On the other hand when you have (for example) xander speaking or thinking it does need to be in Americanisms because otherwise it isn't Xander!
When you say 'in Americanisms' do you mean you would advocate Xander saying "I just realized something" rather than "I just realised something"? Wouldn't that get confusing, if the writer used two different spelling conventions in one story? Or am I misinterpreting you?

what your readers 'expect' from you reflects what they've been exposed to.
That's very true *points up to own admission of doing American to British spelling conversions in the past* But my attitude is that the global village puts the onus on the recipient to adapt, rather than them expect the producer to adapt.

A) it's kinda polite
*grins and winks* That's a point and I promise to start warning for British spelling, as soon as Americans all start warning for American spelling. ;-)

[mistress-tien.livejournal.com]

As a reader, I don't care what spelling is used for narrative; only for speech. It would not surprise me (or upset me) if Xander got his construction tools out of the "boot", but I it would grate on my nerves if he said, "I'm gonna get my tools out of the boot." Good SoCal boy he is, Xander would say "trunk".

When I beta I always check with the author about this sort of thing. I've found some writers want all of their writing Americanized.

I think you should write the way you are comfortable. Personally, I wouldn't be comfortable with British spelling if I were writing Torchwood or Doctor Who. But, I would do everything to make sure the dialog had appropriate British references and slang. No necessarily spelling though.

Just my two cents. I enjoy your writing because I like your writing. I won't stop reading because I disagree with your spelling ;-)

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

It would not surprise me (or upset me) if Xander got his construction tools out of the "boot", but I it would grate on my nerves if he said, "I'm gonna get my tools out of the boot." Good SoCal boy he is, Xander would say "trunk".
Absolutely! And it depends whose POV the story is written in, doesn't it. If Spike or Giles were observing Xander, it would be 'boot', but if it was Willow's POV, it would have to be trunk. (Angel is a problem for me, because he is supposedly Irish originally, but speaks with an American accent *g* I tend to write around the problem by avoiding words that would need to be different.)
I enjoy your writing because I like your writing. I won't stop reading because I disagree with your spelling ;-)
Thank you very much.

[lit-gal.livejournal.com]

I completely agree with you because language is personal... both to the character and the author. If I use dialect or colloquialisms or a particular spelling rule, it's because I want to and I'm the author. And I don't even notice British spelling. So, you do what you want. Well, unless you start having Xander say "bloody" or "arse" or "bonnet" because that would be a little odd.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

you do what you want.
Thanks. I think I can promise that I'll do that. *g*
Well, unless you start having Xander say "bloody" or "arse" or "bonnet" because that would be a little odd.
*shudders* I do so agree.

[smwright.livejournal.com]

Big surprise, but I believe I'm different from everyone. *g* I write in American when the story is American, and I write in British when the story is British. That said, in dialogue, the characters always use whatever their colloquial word would be, but the spelling remains what the spelling would be, story dependent. Thus, if Dixie, an American appearing in a British story, says in dialogue that she's realised something, I use an 's' - but she's still getting her luggage out of the trunk. *winks*

I don't know that I become particularly excited over the conversation, though I do become excited over learning new British English. What gets me is the necessary tedium of making certain I've got it correct (or being sure it's right, *chuckles*).

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

but she's still getting her luggage out of the trunk.
And so she should.

I've noticed that about you. So you base it on Geographical location? So, in Magnolia Jack, it's British spelling, yes? What about when Geoff eventually goes to America to reclaim Dixie? Will the spelling switch? *winks back at you*

[smwright.livejournal.com]

*winks back* Nope. It's still a British story... as are all of the Histories. *g*

[tigerstriped86.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I don't get the big deal about this.

I write as if I were in the character's head (or their skin, but that's kind of weird....). Since Giles obviously speaks differently from Spike or Xander or Angel or Willow (or whoever except for Ethan, but even then...) I try to relate it to the character.

It's easier for me to relate to British humour since I was raised watching comedies like Are You Being Served? and the original Who. I also watched Lawrence Welk. But that's a different issue. My best fic friend told me that I had a great blend of American slang and sarcastic British humour. He said I wrote the perfect Ianto.

I guess I just don't see what all the fuss is really aboot (or atrunk I suppose). Although, he is helpful when I need a check about British culture. Good thing I don't write Indian fanfic I guess!

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I don't get the big deal about this.
*shrugs* Maybe it isn't a big deal. Maybe the whole debate is created by posts like this that are based on a vague feeling, almost a mere suspicion. *g*
I just don't see what all the fuss is really aboot (or atrunk I suppose)
*laughs*

[missus-grace.livejournal.com]

Ooh! Great topic!
I agree with you, and reading the English as narration doesn't jar me at all.

What does bug me, however, is when Buffy says "whilst," Willow wears a jumper, and Xander refers to the boot or bonnet.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

*nods in profound agreement*
Thanks for joining in.

[laazikaat.livejournal.com]

I agree with a previous comment, the only thing that bugs me totally is not using contractions during character dialogue. Unless it's Giles speaking, of course. *g*

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

*g* But have you noticed how difficult it is to type them? And I've had no success in teaching my voice recognition software that they even exist. I always have to go back and put them in afterwards.
It's annoying, because even Giles uses a lot of contractions in his speech. He may not say 'wanna' but he does say 'don't' and 'didn't' and 'it's' and the rest.

[laazikaat.livejournal.com]

But when they're not used, the whole story suffers. It'd not brit spelling versus American spelling that will throw me out of a story, but the dialogue not contracted properly that does it every time. The voices are everything, and my favourite form of short story (when done well) is pure dialogue.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I agree. People speak with contractions, except when labouring a point.
Pure dialogue stories can be fun. They are often fast paced and snappy. if the voices are right, they are a great vehicle for comedy.

[texanfan.livejournal.com]

I'm an odd duck because I recieved part of my education in an English school and I've read of lot of English literature. Consequently, both spellings look right to me. This sometimes causes confusion. :)

I think the "warning" is basically heading well intentioned readers off at the pass. Too many people will point out "misspellings" that they find in a story without that statement.

Excepting dialogue, you should use the spelling that is proper for you. The only exception would be a first person story.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Heee, can we form an Odd Duck Club? (love that phrase)

I've read of lot of English literature. Consequently, both spellings look right to me.
I'd assumed that even Jane Austen and Dickens would have their spelling changed for American editions of their books. Are you saying that is not the case? Because that undermines one of my major arguments, if it's the case. *g* Won't change my behaviour, mind, but... hey, I like to have logic on my side, as well as habit *g*

Too many people will point out "misspellings"
Yeah, that's what willayork said too. I take the point, although I've never seen that happen.

Excepting dialogue, you should use the spelling that is proper for you. The only exception would be a first person story.
Are you talking spelling here, or word choice? For example I would have an American character say "Put the coloured box down on the sidewalk. Don't you realise you could fall on your ass". I wouldn't change my spelling convention.

[texanfan.livejournal.com]

Maybe I should have said I've read a lot of British editions. :)

I take your point on the spelling conventions. As I said, the spelling virtually invisible to me so I think my brain actually went to ass and arse rather than color and colour.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Ah, right. Thanks. I feel reassured and once more secure in my justifications. *g*

*grin* Yeah, I think the spelling is pretty invisible to me too, nowadays when I read. I suspect it is to many people. 'S why the the conversation can easily go off sideways.

Thanks for joining in.

[orchidluv.livejournal.com]

I suspect its because we americans tend to be incredibly egocentric about language. Everyone should speak english, especially in foreign countries where we don't speak the language and everyone should use our spelling because its the right way to do it. *g*

That being said, it took me awhile to get used to British spelling and my brain would at first just stop and say, whoops - typo before I got used to it. I have a tendency to american-ize spelling in something I've downloaded just to keep me in the flow but that's a personal preference and I certainly don't expect people to change "normal" spelling for my convenience. I do expect dialogue to be appropriate for the speaker but in BTVS that's often more "Californian" than "american" since I don't know anyone who talks like the Scooby gang.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Everyone should speak english, especially in foreign countries where we don't speak the language
Oh, that is so much a British trait too - if you only speak loudly enough they're sure to understand you.

I have a tendency to american-ize spelling in something I've downloaded just to keep me in the flow
Yeah, that's exactly what I used to do, in reverse. It was a pain, but with the stories I loved, it meant I could enjoy them without interruption.

I don't know anyone who talks like the Scooby gang
*grins* From what I've heard, it's not even so much Californian as Jossian. But I take the point - the US is a bit country and local language habits would have to exist.

[speakr2customrs.livejournal.com]

I set the spellchecker to US English if the POV character is a Merkin and to UK English if the character is British (or an Elf, or a warrior in T'ang Dynasty China, or anything else where the story is written in English as a substitute for a language not spoken by the readers). If the story is an ensemble piece with no clearly defined POV character then I set the spellchecker to the language of the fandom. US English for 'BtVS', UK English for 'Primeval' (even though they were cowardly enough to spell the name of the show the Merkin way!), UK English for 'Discworld' or 'Thomas the Tank Engine', US English for 'Dr. Horrible'.

I don't change the spelling if the POV character changes during the story, or when the speaker changes, although of course the dialogue has to replicate word usage and speech patterns.

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

Interesting. I really couldn't do that. Wouldn't want to, truth be told. It just shows that you are more flexible than me. *g*