Spike as a character and how he changes
Aug. 12th, 2008 08:23 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
thismazSomeone on my flist made a post about how Spike's character developed during the series and asked what, besides love, could have made him shift from villain to hero. It's locked, so if you can't see it, you won't and if you can, you already know who that was. *g*
I started to ramble in a comment, until I realised I was going on for far too long to be polite in someone else's LJ. So I moved it all here.
My interpretation of Spike and his personal journey...
Firstly, I believe that the reason Spike is such a popular character is because he is so malleable; he does change. We see a different manifestation of him in each season and, in seasons 4, 5, 6 and 7, he mutates from one to the other over the course of the preceding one.
From the point of view of the dynamic of the show, one of the interesting things about him is that he is the only character who is first presented to us as a villain but ends up a hero. All the others, Angel included, are presented to us as 'good'. They may deviate into evil, but we know they can be redeemed, because they were good before.
I don't like the term Love's Bitch, not only because it has become a fanfic cliché, but also because, although Spike uses it about himself he does so ironically (which is not to say untruthfully) and as a label it can too easily close our thinking down into a 'Spike is a victim of love' position in all his romantic relationships.
Similarly, I think there is far too much emphasis placed in fan fiction on Spike caring for Dru. She was sick when we first meet them, but we don't know how long ago they were in Prague. Anyone who thinks that the Dru we see in China, or in London in 1880, or the Dru in the latter half of s2 and later, is in need of 'looking after' hasn't watched the same series I did. The whole 'cared for Dru for 100 years' argument that portrays Dru as perpetual and incompetent child, is totally ridiculous. (Hee, I wouldn't have made a statement as strong as that on someone else's LJ either).
Yes, Spike needs to love. Yes, he needs to be needed. But those aren't his only important motivational traits.
William had a head full of dreams and ideals. He went to a party and got shot down, twice, by people who mocked and rejected everything he believed in and rejected him. Then he died - at a moment of emotional crux, when his faith in humanity had been knocked over and he had been cast out of 'his place' in the world. (On a side note Liam didn't have a problem with the world in general - only with his father. Liam died in a state of personal and individual rebellion against his father. Since my premise is that the state of mind, or the dominant emotion, of the human has a lasting influence upon the vampire, this is important. Angelus has no humanity in him because he turned against humanity at a personal level.) Spike might have turned against humanity in general, but he didn't turn against his own. That was actually what William was clinging to when he died.
Spike needs the security of belonging - not necessarily to someone, but he needs to have a place in the world.
As for his journey from villain to hero:
Being cast off by Dru was a necessary start point - he lost his place.
The chip was the pivot point. There's no question there - it put him in a position where he lost his power and it led him to consort with the Scoobies.
Powerless and lost he took any scrap he could get, until he brought it all crashing down around his own ears.
Did he go looking for his soul? I don't think so. What he says when he wins his challenge in the cave is: Make me what I was. So Buffy can get what she deserves.
Why did he get it? Maybe because the demon in Africa knew better than Spike did himself, what it was he needed. He certainly didn't grant Spike's wish in any way that reflects Spike's words. Spike became a vampire with a soul. That's hardly what he was. But with The First looming on the horizon in Sunnydale, it could be that the demon took a wider view of 'what Buffy deserves', that had nothing to do with love.
And yet, the soul is the point at which he achieves the potential to be redeemed, according to Jossverse lore. So maybe he was made back into what he was - after all, in this context, what is a human but a person with the ability to choose whether to fight against evil or co-operate with it.
So coming back to the question (with apologies for the ramble) what, besides love of Buffy, could motivate Spike to change?
I could see him making the shift without falling in love with Buffy, but I think the spuffy was an accelerant, that it was the means by which he eventually destroyed his own place in the Scooby camp and that was what sent him to Africa.
I started to ramble in a comment, until I realised I was going on for far too long to be polite in someone else's LJ. So I moved it all here.
My interpretation of Spike and his personal journey...
Firstly, I believe that the reason Spike is such a popular character is because he is so malleable; he does change. We see a different manifestation of him in each season and, in seasons 4, 5, 6 and 7, he mutates from one to the other over the course of the preceding one.
From the point of view of the dynamic of the show, one of the interesting things about him is that he is the only character who is first presented to us as a villain but ends up a hero. All the others, Angel included, are presented to us as 'good'. They may deviate into evil, but we know they can be redeemed, because they were good before.
I don't like the term Love's Bitch, not only because it has become a fanfic cliché, but also because, although Spike uses it about himself he does so ironically (which is not to say untruthfully) and as a label it can too easily close our thinking down into a 'Spike is a victim of love' position in all his romantic relationships.
Similarly, I think there is far too much emphasis placed in fan fiction on Spike caring for Dru. She was sick when we first meet them, but we don't know how long ago they were in Prague. Anyone who thinks that the Dru we see in China, or in London in 1880, or the Dru in the latter half of s2 and later, is in need of 'looking after' hasn't watched the same series I did. The whole 'cared for Dru for 100 years' argument that portrays Dru as perpetual and incompetent child, is totally ridiculous. (Hee, I wouldn't have made a statement as strong as that on someone else's LJ either).
Yes, Spike needs to love. Yes, he needs to be needed. But those aren't his only important motivational traits.
William had a head full of dreams and ideals. He went to a party and got shot down, twice, by people who mocked and rejected everything he believed in and rejected him. Then he died - at a moment of emotional crux, when his faith in humanity had been knocked over and he had been cast out of 'his place' in the world. (On a side note Liam didn't have a problem with the world in general - only with his father. Liam died in a state of personal and individual rebellion against his father. Since my premise is that the state of mind, or the dominant emotion, of the human has a lasting influence upon the vampire, this is important. Angelus has no humanity in him because he turned against humanity at a personal level.) Spike might have turned against humanity in general, but he didn't turn against his own. That was actually what William was clinging to when he died.
Spike needs the security of belonging - not necessarily to someone, but he needs to have a place in the world.
As for his journey from villain to hero:
Being cast off by Dru was a necessary start point - he lost his place.
The chip was the pivot point. There's no question there - it put him in a position where he lost his power and it led him to consort with the Scoobies.
Powerless and lost he took any scrap he could get, until he brought it all crashing down around his own ears.
Did he go looking for his soul? I don't think so. What he says when he wins his challenge in the cave is: Make me what I was. So Buffy can get what she deserves.
Why did he get it? Maybe because the demon in Africa knew better than Spike did himself, what it was he needed. He certainly didn't grant Spike's wish in any way that reflects Spike's words. Spike became a vampire with a soul. That's hardly what he was. But with The First looming on the horizon in Sunnydale, it could be that the demon took a wider view of 'what Buffy deserves', that had nothing to do with love.
And yet, the soul is the point at which he achieves the potential to be redeemed, according to Jossverse lore. So maybe he was made back into what he was - after all, in this context, what is a human but a person with the ability to choose whether to fight against evil or co-operate with it.
So coming back to the question (with apologies for the ramble) what, besides love of Buffy, could motivate Spike to change?
I could see him making the shift without falling in love with Buffy, but I think the spuffy was an accelerant, that it was the means by which he eventually destroyed his own place in the Scooby camp and that was what sent him to Africa.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-12 10:11 am (UTC)To me, this explains all his 'that bitch' comments in the cave. He was angry with Buffy because she'd made him feel that way, when, as a vampire, he shouldn't have cared that he'd hurt her.
I do like the qualitative difference you posit between Angelus and William. It certainly works for me. And I agree about Dru. She's very powerful. Not sure why people can't see that.
I could see him making the shift without falling in love with Buffy, but I think the spuffy was an accelerant, that it was the means by which he eventually destroyed his own place in the Scooby camp and that was what sent him to Africa.
I like this -ie. that you've found another reason, apart from just his love for Buffy, that spurred him to change. However, I think it's arguable that he was out of the Scoobie camp well before the AR - since Buffy came back from the dead, in fact.
ETA: I would have left my post open if I could have, but the person who annoyed me so much has an LJ and I didn't want to start a row so it seemed better to flock. I already know that arguing with this person is a waste of time.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-12 12:01 pm (UTC)Have they? I didn't know that. I don't tend to follow the off-screen stories. But I'm afraid I don't actually place too much weight on post-event rationalisations. Joss and gang are hardly the poster children for continuity. *g* I think they left it open at the end of season 6, because they hadn't yet decided what they were going to do with him in season 7.
That doesn't mean I think he knew what he was looking for.
I agree, that is sort of implicit in my argument. I think he wanted something, yes, to change, but I think he thought he wanted to change back to when unlife was simpler.
Not sure why people can't see that.
*sigh* I know. Spike and Dru together were such wonderful villains.
I like this ... However, I think it's arguable that he was out of the Scoobie camp well before the AR
Thank you. ... I would draw a distinction between him having a place in the Scooby Gang and him having a place in their camp. Yes, he had indeed lost the tentative place as a member of the team that he held during the summer Buffy was dead. But he still had a role with the Buffy part of the camp. With the attack on her he lost all hope of that meagre place too.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-13 10:53 am (UTC)Have they? I didn't know that
Blimey, Maz, I'm astonished that you don't. I thought it was common knowledge. However, it's not all off-screen. Spike wanting a soul is made canon in season 7 and AtS season 5, where both the First Evil and Pavayne taunt him for it - and since both of them are taunting him for his weakness and for how stupid he was in thinking getting a soul would automatically make everything better, I see no reason to think they were lying (also bearing in mind Anya's comment that when she was evil, she told the truth all the time).
I don't think he wanted to regress. I genuinely think he wanted to make himself able to 'give Buffy what she deserves.' If all he meant was kill her, why bother with the trials at all? The chip already didn't work on her.
As for Dru, had another thought about what you said about Spike not really looking after her all the time, which is that, this may be true in some senses, but I bet she was crap at map-reading.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-13 11:15 am (UTC)*laughs* It might be common knowledge, if you bought the magazines or frequented the chat boards. I never have. I love the story and the world of the Buffy 'verse. I'm not really interested in the personalities and motivations of the people who made it.
Spike wanting a soul is made canon in season 7 and AtS season 5
*g* by which time he had it, so it was too late to do anything except claim it was what he wanted and defend its existence against anyone who thought it was a mockery of demonhood. All of us do the post event justification thing when things turn out differently from how we'd hoped.
But I actually said he thought he wanted to change back to when unlife was simpler. I also think the demon knew better than him what he really needed.
I genuinely think he wanted to make himself able to 'give Buffy what she deserves.'
We can agree it differ. It's more a difference of emphasis than anything else (ETA: You are saying he consciously wanted his soul. I am saying he needed his soul, but he didn't consciously know that). To expand - I think he wanted to go back to when life was simple, when he could hunt humans, when he didn't love Buffy, when he knew the rules and was at the top of the food chain, when he had certainty about his desires and his place, when his world was care free. The thing was, what he wanted from the demon was not as simple as just getting the chip out. He wanted the last four years to have been different. He wouldn't have killed Buffy, so the chip not working on her isn't relevant. But he wanted to want to.
but I bet she was crap at map-reading.
*laughing* Oh, thank you for that thought. I bet you're right. *grins and tips hat*
no subject
Date: 2008-08-13 11:35 am (UTC)I'm sorry. I can't accept that everything he said to Buffy in that scene was a self-serving lie, especially given his mental state at the time.
Like you say, we will most definitely have to agree to disagree on this because to me, Spike actively wanting his soul is the most crucial point in his whole story, without which, I'm afraid, everything that comes later becomes a nonsense to me.
I'm not saying I think his motives were pure when he asked for it. I think there was a definite element of 'that'll show her' in him wanting it, but I do think he wanted it, while at the same time hating himself, and Buffy, for the fact that he felt that way.
Spike: How many times do I have to tell you, Dru, this car cannot bloody fly!
Dru: But Spike, the stars say to go straight up.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-13 11:48 am (UTC)*g* We can also have an animated discussion on Friday night, if we have the energy.
I never thought Spike's words to Buffy in the church were a self-serving lie. Far from it. *pulls up the scripts, to double check*
Straight up? *laughs* I love it!
no subject
Date: 2008-08-13 11:51 am (UTC)Er - possibly. Have to warn you, though, I get very wound up on this subject, as you've probably noticed.
I never thought Spike's words to Buffy in the church were a self-serving lie. Far from it
Yes, but they'd have to be, wouldn't they, if he didn't want his soul, since he says he did it 'for her - to be hers.'
Aargh! Can't go on talking about this - not without alcohol.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-13 12:25 pm (UTC)No worries, hon. We can have the alcohol without the discussion as easily as with. See you soon. So looking forward to it.
no subject
Date: 2008-08-13 02:18 pm (UTC)